HELP! Joining 1800FLOWERS good or bad?...

[SUPEREAGLE43]

We are a new florist open since 11/05. We are doing fine without any ws. Rep came by and made 1800flowers look good. There are 4 shops in my city. Only one has 1800. We would be the second making us a preferred vendor since they want two preferred vendors in this city. My wife is the only employee and I help on my off days from work to give you an idea of our shop size. Thanks for your input in advance.

 

[BOSS]

Far as I can tell... 800's fee structure is based on the number of orders you receive, not on what you send or a flat rate...

Jury is still out for me, but I too am looking into it dilligently....

Question(s) would be, do you want INcoming orders? If so, then you might want to look into it, if no, then why consider it...and lastly do you have sufficient OUTgoing volume to justify the need for a "service"?

 

[slcummins]

I have been a member of 1800 flowers for 1 year now. I have never had any trouble and like the willingness to work with you if you have a problem with an order. I can't tell you how many times I have asked for extra $$$ to cover the cost of say delivery or the price wasn't enough to do the order and they have only once told me no. I ended up rejecting that order and they said they understood. So I like getting a check every month and if I order supplies from them, they will take it out of the account so you really don't even miss the money. I have no other wire service to compare to but from all the whining that goes on about wires on this sight, I would say I'm pretty lucky. Hope this helps. Stephanie

 

[AKIKO'S]

Just A Warning From Our Experience

DON'T SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL YOU READ IT VERY CAREFULLY! We signed up, what did arrive in the mail had requirements quite different than those discussed by the rep (Who we knew!) Weeks passed and no technology arrived. Found out that rep had gone on vacation, and nothing was done with our application except to cash the check. Contract stated the check was non-refundable, but we threatened suit for non performance of the contract on their part, and the refund appeared. Our name appeared in their next directory! They really appear to be well organized! NOT!

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

We fought 1800 Flowers....

for 4 1/2 years over some pretty serious issues, from OUR point of view, and there was NO DEALING with them that resembled "common sense" of any kind!!
It MAY be somewhat different for US shops. but, here in Canada, 1800 Flowers is TOTALLY USELESS!!

 

[virginia_Bob]

1800 has been by here a couple of times and called on the phone. They have one shop already in the county that is getting bombed by discount orders. No thanks. The only other thing is hmmmm. We have all been fighting Order gatherers, direct shippers, skimmers and the rest of the banes of this industry for years. So why in the #@#$ would you want to pay them to compete with you for your own local customers. Sorry for the rant but they make me crazy. They might not be going away but the fact still remains if they can't find local florist willing to lose money on their incoming orders they can't send em.

just my humble opinion.

 

[DavidT]

It's Good for me

I've been a member of Bloomlink for 2.5 years. It works for me. Avg orders month in and out..between 50.00 and 55.00. I receive avg (non holiday) 35 orders per month. If I need more money for delivery etc. "No problem" Just be ready to grow on the number of orders you are doing now because they will cover you up if you are not carefull and on Holidays be ready. i received over 150 for Mothers day. You will ewceive some cheap orders...29.95 etc. but over all..The system works. . Sending with them is getting better..more and more shops avalable..and the rebates are 3.00 first 20 then 5.00 if you send 20 or more. I can tell you this, It has helped my local business grow. (If you put good looking flowers in homes folks remember where they came from and will order from you in the future. I consider myself as a filling florist. I think this is fine for me I have all 3 major services. Bloomlink is by far the best. and YES I do make money, so many think you can't make money filling wire service orders...Some can't...Some DO!!! My local business has grown over 28% each year. I feel this is due to more and more people seeing our work. lol I guess I'm just greedy...if a flower is sold in my town I want to be the one selling it.

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

We are a new florist open since 11/05. We are doing fine without any ws. Rep came by and made 1800flowers look good. There are 4 shops in my city. Only one has 1800. We would be the second making us a preferred vendor since they want two preferred vendors in this city. My wife is the only employee and I help on my off days from work to give you an idea of our shop size. Thanks for your input in advance.

Man, this is like a weekly question! You can tell the Bloomlink reps are out in full force!

We were with Bloomlink for nearly 9 years. In the beginning, it was GREAT - totally volume based. Then, 800 wanted three or more shops per town. Volume dropped, so did the ability to make money on orders. Left them this past January - a year too late IMHO. In summary, just WATCH your bottom line! Yea, it's nice to get a monthly check, but have you done the math? No, really DONE the math? We did. Found that we were making about a 3% profit on orders $59.99 and above, and losing $ on everything else. There's a real simple formula out there - will e-mail it to you if you like.

Why do you want more discounted business? You do realize you get 70 cents on the dollar. Then, take out your BLM fees, COG, labor and delivery. What's left?

- Herb

 

[BOSS]

At the risk of suffering an attack for left field....

For some of us looking at 800 Flowers, we must have a database of florists to send orders to, and as coverage declines in some arenas it grows in others. 800 has some good offerings that I feel I might utalize and leverage to my advantage.

Most of you know, I try to do alot of investigation prior to jumping into something, and so far 800 looks like a viable alternative.

Bob's right, we have been fighting OG's, skimmers and the lot, myself I do not necessarily put 800 into the same catagory, they are IMHO similar to FTD or Teleflora, depending on the parts of the company you choose to use.

DavidT as well, has some valid points...no I'm not a filler like he claims to be, I do fill for other florists and do so gladly. I do not believe the argument of converting recipients into customers as the WS story goes, however his numbers are impressive, and I'm sure some of that is happening in his case.

One thing I have to decide for my business, is how far do I want to go? Do I want to take all the incommings into my delivery area and cut out the other shops in town, or do I want to use another company to further my own companies position and continue to operate as I have for the last two years? Right now for me, it looks like the later is te best option, I'm not interested in filling every order, I concentrate on local business, and that works for me, and 800 seems to be content to let me continue in that vein...

Again...time will tell......

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

More Food for Thought...

OK - I've got 10 minutes to kill, so here are some REAL numbers from my Bloomlink Nov. 2005 statement:
(yes, I have no problem in sharing REAL numbers)
QUALIFIERS: - these numbers are for 1-800 orders ONLY, not other Florist orders (800 takes 29%, Florist orders are 27%) But, there were only 7 florist orders sent the month of November through BMT (a.k.a. Bloomlink)
$4,999.93 Gross - 96 orders
subtract the following:
1450.18 (29% to 800)
1499.98 (COG's at 30% based on gross $)
999.99 (Labor at 20% - kinda low...)
Leaves you with: $1049.79 Net
Now, take out AVERAGE delivery costs:
mine are $4 per order (REALLY low, since I use a delivery pool)
$4x96 orders = $384
Subtract BMT fees of $333.48 (includes the DLCF payback of $54.00)
And, the final number is........ $332.31 profit

NOT accounted for are replacement costs, stuffing (a BIG no-no with 800 orders), and time spent on dealing with 800 operators...

You make the call: Should we have stayed in with $332 in profit on about $5k worth of orders???

- Herb

 

[CHR]

NOT accounted for are replacement costs, stuffing (a BIG no-no with 800 orders), and time spent on dealing with 800 operators...

To the 'problem' list I add - following up on wrong addresses and not-at-homes, calling hospitals to verify patients, calling churches and funeral homes to verify services.

Looking at 1-800's designs, I don't see how most shops can make them look like the pictures without stuffing. Providing the 'Plum Crazy' arrangement (seen below) for $29.95 delivered ($21.27 to the shop) is Plum Crazy for any florist IMO.

You make the call: Should we have stayed in with $332 in profit on about $5k worth of orders???

Only if you're plum crazy. :>

 

[Jerry]

Thank you Herb, for being candid.

Now take those numbers and attach them to a small town florist that does not buy in volume like I'm sure Herb does, can everyone say OUCH!!!!

Sorry Boss but you seem alittle watered down, with that post. IMHO, a spade is a spade. I have empathy for all that have to make those kind of choices.

 

[wildflower]

Herb, I dont want to totally argue with your numbers, I dont even own a flowershop yet, but I do own a business. Some things for me look a bit off.

For example, you list labor cost of $999. Our upcoming shop has employees, there is always one person in the store (designer or a salesperson who does some basic stuff), unless it's Really busy and then there is two people. I pay them hourly for whatever work they do. You can not say that it really cost you 1K to JUST stuff those 1-800 orders. Some of these costs you can come up with if you really do want to, but some I think are there to make the picture much more grim that it really is. I may be totally off here, and If I am I apologise, but it just seems that some florists on this site try really hard to talk people out of WS just because they dont personally feel it's right for them.

I personally have not made up my mind, and will soon after taking over the shop, but I am not convinced that those numbers are accurate, though I have seen them repeated several times on the site to argue this exact point.

 

[Eric S]

Do you really need more discounted orders to your shop?
Do you only want to make $71.00 per $100 that is sent to you?
Do you want to enable 800 flowers to infect your area so that customers will just call them or place orders on their website instead of with you.
Do you want to change your shop name to 800flowers intead of your own name?

You will only learn from your own mistakes and if you decide to sign up with them you better do your home work. If you can figure out how to make it profitable enough then come back here and share it with us. It won't be easy and it will take some time before you realize if your decision is working or not. It is not a quick solution if you are looking to increase more money into your own hands. Some of us will agure that you will gain new customers from it and some of us will say that you will be creating new customers for 800flowers. Again its going to be up to you to figure that out.

I signed up with 800flowers December 2004 and filled until March 2005. I will just make it simplle and say it didn't work and if I had continued to do it I would not bother to post this becuase I probally wouldn't be around anymore.

There is no quick and easy answer to become a successful florist. It takes time and money and an understanding as to what makes enough money for your business to pay the bills and have enough left over for you hard work.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Herb, I dont want to totally argue with your numbers, I dont even own a flowershop yet, but I do own a business. Some things for me look a bit off.

For example, you list labor cost of $999. Our upcoming shop has employees, there is always one person in the store (designer or a salesperson who does some basic stuff), unless it's Really busy and then there is two people. I pay them hourly for whatever work they do. You can not say that it really cost you 1K to JUST stuff those 1-800 orders. Some of these costs you can come up with if you really do want to, but some I think are there to make the picture much more grim that it really is. I may be totally off here, and If I am I apologise, but it just seems that some florists on this site try really hard to talk people out of WS just because they dont personally feel it's right for them.
...

No problem! Welcome the post. OK - first bold point...
The only thing that could be off (and I don't think so) is my math...
Second bold point, YES, based on a very rough labor figure of 20%, it did indeed cost me $999 in labor to do those orders. REMEMBER: due to LOW volume, you CANNOT mass-produce the 800 product line effeciantly. We USED to be able to do that when there were only 10~15 products, we were getting 400~500 orders a month. Now, with 100+ products, coupled with low volume, mass production is not an option. We USED to use $8/hr. designers to do those designs. Then, due to volume shrinkage, can't keep the less-experienced desinger around, and my top 3 had to do the designs.
OK...look at the numbers closely: 30% COG's: any argument there? How about a 20% labor figure on a per order basis...yes?

Third bold part: no, the numbers do not lie. They are real.
If you want, I'll fax you a copy of my statement - that's how real my numbers are. I have nothing to gain or lose.

Fourth bold part: Nope. Don't care what you do. I just do not want to see anyone lose their shirt over a bad business move. (very easy to do with discounted business)...

QUALIFIER #2: In BOSS-MAS's view: I TOTALLY agree with what he is doing. In fact, I will venture to say that Bloomlink is a GOOD "Wire Service" if you need one with low fees, and decent coverage area. BUT, IMHO stay away from the 800 orders (you CAN sign up for BMT and not take 800 orders). Use BMT for florist to florist orders. BUT, be mindeful of delivery charges! BMT does not codify for delivery in their directory.

Oh, last thing: you MAY be able to make money with 800 at V-day if you buy cheap roses, and at Mom's Day if you are able to staff with inexpensive designers and crank out the designs with bulk purchasing of lesser grade flowers.
We did.

- Herb

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Looking at 1-800's designs, I don't see how most shops can make them look like the pictures without stuffing. Providing the 'Plum Crazy' arrangement (seen below) for $29.95 delivered ($21.27 to the shop) is Plum Crazy for any florist IMO. Only if you're plum crazy. :>

Cathy, you just gave me BAD flash backs! Haven't seen one of those things in six months...

- H.

Oh, and you ARE allowed to sub a clear 6" ginger vase for the $3 wholsale-cost purple vase on the $29.99 price point as long as you tie a piece of purple #3 ribbon around the neck of the vase. (no subs allowed in the pricier $34.99 version...)

 

[CHR]

I pay them hourly for whatever work they do. You can not say that it really cost you 1K to JUST stuff those 1-800 orders. Some of these costs you can come up with if you really do want to, but some I think are there to make the picture much more grim that it really is.

Edward, you're right in that it's a capacity issue. If you can use WS orders to simply fill in the capacity gaps and help achieve an economy of scale on the buying and/or production sides, filling makes some sense.

Hotels allow agents to broker their rooms to fill capacity. It's a win-win. They move excess inventory and make money on additional services - food, amenities, etc... When a hotel knows it's going to be busy (the Super Bowl's in town, it's peak tourist season) they raise prices, take their room inventory off agent lists and keep 100% of sales for themselves. It's a seller's market.

The go-to (top priority receiver) WS fillers have no such option. In peak holiday time, they must fill all orders, pretty much at the prices sold, or risk losing them during slow times. For the last few years 1-800 has extracted additional discounts just prior to Valentine's Day, requiring the core florists to grant discounts of more than 35% so the company could advertise low prices. Mind you, this is during the week with the highest COGS in the biz.

Capacity will already be stretched and often those shops will have to say no to local orders to meet their demanding WS obligations.

The WSs give florists the OK to substitute containers and flowers but consumers cry fowl anyway, expecting to see the exact design with the exact flowers and container they selected online. The WSs can and do cancel orders after they've been delivered as agreed, leaving florists with less than zero.

Since you're new, you are likely unaware that 1-800 hits their biggest fillers with further obligations to re-brand their stores including using 1-800-flowers logos on their trucks and 1-800-flower enclosure cards on all orders. (Those customers are their customers, not yours.) The large shops that balk - having grown their capacity to accommodate 1-800 - are told the orders will be sent elsewhere if the stores won't comply.

So in essence, filling any OGs orders primarily goes to reinforce their brand, not your own. Do a great job and the buyer will purchase from the WS/OG again. (They have the purchaser's info; you don't.) Yes, you may pick up recipients as local customers but don't think the OG/WS aren't marketing to them, too.

1-800 can offer 20%-off deals, miles, Petal Points and other amenities since florists are happily giving them 29% discounts on every order. It's called subsidizing the competition.

And about PhillyPhlorist's numbers - they're within the range of our same findings. Yes, they are that grim for most shops reliant on incoming orders.

Sorry to ramble but the view from the filling side is a bit more complex than meets the eye.

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Capacity will already be stretched and often those shops will have to say no to local orders to meet their demanding WS obligations.

Good point, because I had forgotten to mention this. This 'capacity' factor was one of the top points for us dropping 800/BMT. We simply could not fill our own customer's orders at peak holiday times because we were flooded with last-minute 800 orders we were OBLIGATED to take. If you accept the order off BMT, it is YOUR order to fill. Reject it and you lose codification for the product instantly (if the order calls for a holiday special, or Codified item).

We decided to answer our phones and take more local orders rather than 800/BMT orders. This WAS frowned upon by the folks at 800...they did NOT like you suspending your system. If you suspended, you HAD to accept every order that comes your way within 90 minutes of the time you notified your BBC. (Bloomlink Business Consultant)

- H.

 

[hcflorist]

We have all been fighting Order gatherers, direct shippers, skimmers and the rest of the banes of this industry for years. So why in the #@#$ would you want to pay them to compete with you for your own local customers. Sorry for the rant but they make me crazy. They might not be going away but the fact still remains if they can't find local florist willing to lose money on their incoming orders they can't send em.

just my humble opinion.

I totally agree.

 

[goldfish]

For example, you list labor cost of $999. Our upcoming shop has employees, there is always one person in the store (designer or a salesperson who does some basic stuff), unless it's Really busy and then there is two people. I pay them hourly for whatever work they do. You can not say that it really cost you 1K to JUST stuff those 1-800 orders. Some of these costs you can come up with if you really do want to, but some I think are there to make the picture much more grim that it really is.

"Labor cost," as is used by mot people here, is simply a number calculated from the total personnel cost (wages and benefits) and the total sales of flower arrangements. For example, if your flower sales is $10,000 and employees' salary is $3,000, we say you "spent" $30 in "labor cost" for every $100 arrangement you made. Forget about other things these employees might have done.

Note that, for many small florists, labor is more of a fixed expense, rather than a variable "cost" associated with production of flower arrangement. Slow business days drive up nominal labor "cost" in these shops. Thus "labor cost" does overestimate the actual labor put into the production of flower arrangements, especially for smaller shops. In fact, I don't use it in my accounting because of this reason.

Despite its shortcoming, however, I can see why the idea of "labor cost" can be convenient when it comes to analyzing WS-side of florist businesses. Simply put, without labor cost, your gross profit (sales - COGS) is always positive, thus making it hard to determine whether WS-side of your business is making or losing money.

If, in a hypothetical florist, COGS% is 35% and "labor cost" is calculated to be 35%, its WS-side of business with a 30-35% discount (including misc fees) is most likely losing money. It doesn't mean, however, that this store should stop the WS right away, though, unless it can also reduce the labor proportionally.

If your shop currently has an "excess production capacity" as CHR puts it, the issue of whether you should join a WS or not is more of a philosophical than economical one, in my opinion.