WS Templates vs Independent Sites

[Joe Mioux]

Our template sites are comparable in cost to TF sites and they don't look like 15,000 other florist websites

It's a way to differentiate yourself from the pack a bit.

Ryan

you bring up a point that needs rebutting (yes I see the wink)

How many North American florists are there and how many have websites? I am guessing but I bet it less than 20 pct.

How many tf websites are out there?

How many ftd's

How many template types are out there?

If tf has 20K members, I would imagine that there would probably be less 2000 TF websites. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were 4000. Now look at a couple dozen different templates that TF offers.

FTD? maybe a 1000 or 2000 then consider the various templates they offer to add differentiation to each florist.

800? do they have them? i don't know.

All other template based websites? yours, media99 etc? less than a 1000? probably.

My point is, even though tf ftd, you, media99 offer template based websites, that doesn't make them inferior.

My other point is that TF does not have 15K florist websites out there. There might be what 8K florist websites out in North America?

So the old argument that runs its cycle here is specious. That argument is "WS templates are inferior because everyone has them and florists need to distinguish themselves from the rest."

Think like a consumer not like a retail florist when developing these things.

I once had a web developer walk in the shop and compliment me on my website. He even did the website work for one of the largest grocery chains in the Midwest, which included the floral dept.

added: Take what I said, add up all the different versions of WS and indpendent web developer templates, spread that across say 8000 (guess) florists in U.S. and CA and soon you can see that all those templates seem pretty sparse and diffused over the continent and among flower shops.

joe

NOTE: my website numbers are just guesses for the purpose of discussion. i would be interested in learning the actual numbers.

 

[theRKF]

you bring up a point that needs rebutting (yes I see the wink)

How many North American florists are there and how many have websites? I am guessing but I bet it less than 20 pct.

How many tf websites are out there?

How many ftd's

How many template types are out there?

If tf has 20K members, I would imagine that there would probably be less 2000 TF websites. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were 4000. Now look at a couple dozen different templates that TF offers.

FTD? maybe a 1000 or 2000 then consider the various templates they offer to add differentiation to each florist.

800? do they have them? i don't know.

All other template based websites? yours, media99 etc? less than a 1000? probably.

My point is, even though tf ftd, you, media99 offer template based websites, that doesn't make them inferior.

My other point is that TF does not have 15K florist websites out there. There might be what 8K florist websites out in North America?

So the old argument that runs its cycle here is specious. That argument is "WS templates are inferior because everyone has them and florists need to distinguish themselves from the rest."

Think like a consumer not like a retail florist when developing these things.

I once had a web developer walk in the shop and compliment me on my website. He even did the website work for one of the largest grocery chains in the Midwest, which included the floral dept.

added: Take what I said, add up all the different versions of WS and indpendent web developer templates, spread that across say 8000 (guess) florists in U.S. and CA and soon you can see that all those templates seem pretty sparse and diffused over the continent and among flower shops.

joe

NOTE: my website numbers are just guesses for the purpose of discussion. i would be interested in learning the actual numbers.

May I rebut your rebuttal? Your numbers are way off.

1) Sources at TF have told me upwards of 15,000 TF websites.

2) Here are a few Google searches designed at finding TF sites:

• Search for a long snippet of default text (yes, that says 54,000 sites)
• TF Template sites in Syracuse NY (yes, that says 60 sites)

3) Many OGs have multiple sites from TF/FTD/800

If you were looking for a florist in Syracuse and there were 60 shops with an uneven distribution of the 11 templates that TF offers (at last count), wouldn't you start to get confused? Thinking like a consumer ...

Google reports 2.8 million search results for websites located in the USA, with the word "florist" in the title. Granted, they are not all florists, but that is still the measure of your competition online.

Ryan

 

[Joe Mioux]

May I rebut your rebuttal? Your numbers are way off.

1) Sources at TF have told me upwards of 15,000 TF websites.


If you were looking for a florist in Syracuse and there were 60 shops with an uneven distribution of the 11 templates that TF offers (at last count), wouldn't you start to get confused? Thinking like a consumer ...

Ryan

do you really believe that 15K number?

Lets' look at that number. TF members are the only businesses that can get TF website, correct?

TF has 20K members which includes OG's. correct?

And not all TF members have the websites through TF, correct?

Given these bits of info, How many shops are paying for multiple TF websites?

That 15K number simply doesn't seen plausible. Who owns them and why would a business buy two or more templates of the same product?

Syracuse 11 templates.... do they all have the same template? I haven't looked but I doubt it. Do they all have the same prices?,

Do they all have the same delivery zones?

Do they do any customization?

There is a lot of customization that can be done to these WS templates that make them look really different from the rest.

That is a matter of the shop owner's desire to differentiate.

I have seen one FC'r website that looks sort of like a TF site, but with her customization it is hard to tell. Is that a good thing? yea.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have problems with custom flower shop websites if they perform for that consumer market and flower shop owner.

joe

 

[CHR]

Joe -

Last time I checked:

TF hosted about 15,000
FTD more than 6000 (including major grocery store chains like Kroger)
Media 99 over 1000
Flowershop Network over 500

I estimate there more than 1000 shops who have both an FTD & TF hosted template.

FTD also torpedos the web presence of some of their hosted florists by changing the URL and causing them to lose inbound links. They've done it at least twice over the last 5 years.

As Ryan has said, in a competitive market area - especially metros - the duplicate content caused by the use of basic templates leaves those florists far from the first page of G results for their city queries.

Small and rural markets with less competition may fare better, but I see many, many of them getting beat by Wesley Berry, who has invested heavily in SEO. See these seaches for Poca WV, Smock PA & Porter NC.

 

[Joe Mioux]

Joe -

Last time I checked:

TF hosted about 15,000
FTD more than 6000 (including major grocery store chains like Kroger)
Media 99 over 1000
Flowershop Network over 500

I estimate there more than 1000 shops who have both an FTD & TF hosted template.

FTD also torpedos the web presence of some of their hosted florists by changing the URL and causing them to lose inbound links. They've done it at least twice over the last 5 years.

As Ryan has said, in a competitive market area - especially metros - the duplicate content caused by the use of basic templates leaves those florists far from the first page of G results for their city queries.

Small and rural markets with less competition may fare better, but I see many, many of them getting beat by Wesley Berry, who has invested heavily in SEO. See these seaches for Poca WV, Smock PA & Porter NC.

and i am not disputing the need for customization in competitive environments.

but it also appears that many website developers use templates. Again that is not a bad thing..... just making an observation.

does Wesley Berry use TF websites or their own?

SEO stuff...

The WS do that as well.

joe
]
btw: Cathy, where did you find TF's 15K number? or the others?

 

[CHR]

I wrote a long post and it evaporated....

Bottom line, you can see how many sites are hosted by a WS or other template provider by checking the whois. I threw out some numbers from memory and was off a bit. TF is not currently 15,000... it's 17,4000. Your site info has a line:

Reverse IP:17,400 other sites hosted on this server.

FTD/Novator says 4981 & Media 99 shows 624 on their server.

 

[Mac]

Hi Cathy:

I usually agree with just about everything your fingers type out, but I differ quite a bit from this comment:

“As Ryan has said, in a competitive market area - especially metros - the duplicate content caused by the use of basic templates leaves those florists far from the first page of G results for their city queries. “

Both FTD & TLF wire-service websites are customizable where pictures can be uploaded onto the website. In the case of FOL sites, every page has the option to add customizable text and special html coding. In addition, every page also has the option to have different title & meta tags.

So you may be thinking “why don’t I ever see this”? Well, the answer is because florists very rarely explore their options in FOL/TLF portals and make these changes to appear different. Most florists are understandably just florists and lack the skills & interest to make it happen.

As you know, templates are just an outer-shell; it is what you put in it that makes it different from the rest. Moreover, any wire-service website CAN be ranked not only on the first page of Google for popular city queries, but can rank in the top 3 spot.

Isn’t there are a FOL florist who ranks right beneath you for “Anaheim flowers”? The website seems to rank fairly easily and still lacks much of the customization that is available to them.

Any way, I don't mean to come across negative on you.

 

[mb0509]

Don't the wire services record and market to all of the customers who order from WS sites? The better a site ranks, the more customers the WS has to market to, a major reason for me to have my own site.

Mary

 

[Mac]

Hi Mary:

In the case of FOL websites, by default, there appears a email sign-up box at the bottom the FOL homepages. This email sign-up box can be removed as a customized option in the FOL portal.

 

[master J]

[call me naive,but I don't think TF is stealing your customer info and marketing to them, I was with TF website for 10 years, and they never marketed to my customers...

I know this because I have never gotten TF campaigns, along with a lot of my family members, who are also on my mailing list through Tf website, and they have never been marketed too.

I just recently signed up with TF.con to get emails, because I wanted to see how & when thy send out there campaigns, and I do like some of their ideas that they send out. I now get them all the time, the only way you will get marketed to is by signing up on TF.com site.

This is just from my experience, so just an opinion.

Does anybody have proof that Tf has stolen their customer data?
I just don't think it is happening.:dunce

 

[CHR]

Both FTD & TLF wire-service websites are customizable where pictures can be uploaded onto the website. In the case of FOL sites, every page has the option to add customizable text and special html coding. In addition, every page also has the option to have different title & meta tags.

The title & meta tags are true for FTD but not TF.

Yes, both sites are customizable. I ran a heavily customized TF template for many years. Moving my site to a more SEO friendly platform and off TF servers made a substantial difference in the amount of traffic & converstions. I also got to stop paying the $3/order fee.

florists very rarely explore their options in FOL/TLF portals and make these changes to appear different. Most florists are understandably just florists and lack the skills & interest to make it happen.

Very true. I think you'll find that many who do take the time to learn often figure out there are better options in terms of hosts and platforms.

As you know, templates are just an outer-shell; it is what you put in it that makes it different from the rest. Moreover, any wire-service website CAN be ranked not only on the first page of Google for popular city queries, but can rank in the top 3 spot.

Can & do are two different things. Look at LA, NY, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Houston.... The top natural results are not from WS hosts and most contain substantial unique content.

Isn’t there a FOL florist who ranks right beneath you for “Anaheim flowers”?

As you know, age of site and inbound links also helps with ranking. Actually, the FOL hosted sites seem to appear much, much better in natural search in our city than the TF hosted sites. I just looked & can only find 1 TF site in the top 20.

Like I said, it's possible to rank decently with a WS site. I've done it in the past. But there are definite advantages to independent hosting.

 

[David]

Actually, the FOL hosted sites seem to appear much, much better in natural search in our city than the TF hosted sites. I just looked & can only find 1 TF site in the top 20.

Like I said, it's possible to rank decently with a WS site. I've done it in the past. But there are definite advantages to independent hosting.

I rank very well with my ftd hosted site. I hope I don't decline when I switch to my strider site. Long term I think it's better to have an independent site. FTD has put lots of work to have there sites SEO well. At three $ an order they have a great incentive to see there sites seo well.

 

[Mac]

At three $ an order they have a great incentive to see there sites seo well.

That three dollar amount is negotiable depending on your volume;-)

 

[LJVF]

My current website is hosted by Media99, but back when I had an FTD template I was very happy. I ranked well in the search engines and the online portal surprisingly provides the florist a lot of custom capabilities. The problem is, most florists don't even know this portal even exists. The people over at the Florists Online department were very helpful and accommodating.

 

[bloomz]

On a search for Seattle florists the top 2 listings are an FTD site then a Teleflora site. The Teleflora one is a heavily customized one they make for RTI users - but can and will do for anyone that asks or pays for it.

Anyone with the desire and ambition to work on their site can do well - none of them really run on cruise control.

WS template sites that are just bought and left to run - well you get out of it what you put into it, and you'll find this true no matter who builds your website. Nobody has the obsession or drive like an owner *should* have.

Wesley doesn't seem to be having any trouble with issues like duplicate content or product images using an ftd platform.

Yup he also gets out of it what he puts in it.

I'm sure you'll find this true with a strider website as well - they're all simply a platform to begin to work from.

 

[Joe Mioux]

As you know, templates are just an outer-shell; it is what you put in it that makes it different from the rest. Moreover, any wire-service website CAN be ranked not only on the first page of Google for popular city queries, but can rank in the top 3 spot.

Mac, thank you. I have never been able to phrase my comments re: WS templates quite right.

Your paragraph above is what I was always thinking, but never could exactly put that thought into words.

thanks.

joe.

now I have to go home and clean some Quail Been out twice this week, the first time I have taken any time away from work in over two years. it was 25 degrees, slight breeze out of the South, Sunny and the dogs were working the milo, corn and fence rows superbly today!

 

[Mac]

Great discussion Cathy….one point though about this comment:

Look at LA, NY, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Houston.... The top natural results are not from WS hosts and most contain substantial unique content.

You are of course correct for those specific cities, but for other major areas like, say, Toronto (which according to wiki, has over 2.5 million residents, and is the fifth most populous municipality in North America) you have an FOL website leading the pack for “Toronto florist”:

1. toronto florist : Home
Canadiana Flowers, 3087 Kingston Rd., Scarborough, ON M1M1P1, toronto florist, toronto florists.
www.torontoflorist.com 40k - Cached - Similar pages

2. Tidy's Flowers - Online Florist & Flower Shop
For all your flower needs, Tidy's Flowers is the online florist and flower shop of choice. Our large selection, creativity and attention to detail has made ...
www.tidysflowers.com/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages

3. Martin's, the Flower People, Toronto Florist
Toronto floral shop delivering fresh and preserved arrangements, Speaking Roses, fruit baskets and plants for everyday occasions and weddings.
martinflowers.com - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

I wonder who number #3 is ;-)

 

[LJVF]

Can & do are two different things. Look at LA, NY, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Houston.... The top natural results are not from WS hosts and most contain substantial unique content.

Interesting point, these happen to probably be the toughest cities to compete when it comes to search rankings.

 

[CHR]

With the URL being a dead match for the keywords, don't you think they have a bit of a leg up? Here's what I found with other popular keywords:

Google Canada
Toronto ON Florist Tidy's #1, Martin's #2, torontoflorist.com #3

Flowers Toronto ON Tidy's #1, Martin's #2, torontoflorist.com #9

Toronto Flowers Tidy's #1, Martin's #2, torontoflorist.com #3

Florist Toronto ON Tidy's #1, Martin's #3, torontoflorist.com #6

Google US

Toronto ON Florist Martin's #1, Tidy's #2, Torontoflorist.com #3

Flowers Toronto ON Tidy's #1, Martin's #4, Torontoflorist.com #6

Toronto Flowers Tidy's #1, Martin's #2, Torontoflorist.com #4

IMO it's good to be in the top 3 across a broad range of keywords - for surfers both above and below the border. The FOL site is #1 once and in the top 3 in only half of the other popular keyword sets.

 

[CHR]

On a search for Seattle florists the top 2 listings are an FTD site then a Teleflora site.

Do you believe florists (plural) is more popular in search than florist (singular)? Google Trends shows otherwise.

Seattle Florist - I see WS template based sites at #2, #3 & #7

Seattle Flowers - WS templates at #2, #3, #4 & #6

Ballard Blossoms (FTD) and Topper's (TF) are both well-respected companies and should have some nice inbounds from locals, bloggers, etc to help. You rarely find top volume florists using WS hosting these days so IMO their success is not likely to be seen in other major metros.

How many FTD Top 100 members use one of FTD's templates as their primary site for local customers?

WS template sites that are just bought and left to run - well you get out of it what you put into it, and you'll find this true no matter who builds your website.

Very true.

Wesley doesn't seem to be having any trouble with issues like duplicate content or product images using an ftd platform.

Did you ever look at all the keyword-loaded 'testimonials' that surround each and every city doorway page? That site has been heavily customized and interlinked like mad.

BTW, I hadn't noticed that "FTD Florists Online" was the registered owner of WesleyBerry.net. Lovely.