Are WS-free florists really more profitable?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks to everyone for their kind remarks.

What has always interested me about the discussion of wire service profitability is the terms used to support the idea that incoming orders are profitable has never changed. Florists will also rely on the fact that if their current number of monthly outgoing orders is sufficient to pay for the basic fees of membership, then it must be alright to belong to a WS. The problem is that belonging to any WS is a two-headed coin, or in most cases, a two-headed monster. You can't judge the fessibility of a WS by just the math numbers on sending orders or a separate need to fill orders. In less you are a sending only florist, a WS requires you to both SEND and RECEIVE and you have to evaluate the true cost of both aspects for YOUR business.

I've used this example before. If you are a florist sending out 30 orders a month at a $50 per order average, the commission and rebate funds you receive is $390. Subtract the monthly cost of $250 (monthly dues and fees) and you only net $140. If that florist sent those same orders out direct and charges a $6 sending fee, the net would be $180. In both cases you would have to subtract the internal cost of labor to send the orders, but it would be hard to convince anyone that cost of the latter would be $40 more than the prior. Hense there is more profit to the smaller sender.

For the record, everyone has EXCESS CAPACITY. Henry Ford could produce Model T's at the rate of one every 10 SECONDS. He was able to accomplish that by putting troughs throughout the plant and if you HAD TO GO, you went in the trough because no one was allowed "potty breaks". Every company has some form of excess capacity, but most smart businesses realize that they are more profitable by working at less than capacity. Most manufacturing companies I have worked for liked to be at 80-85% capacity. That means they have 15-20% excess capacity. All will tell you that in most cases, once you start working in that excess capacity time, efficiencies decrease, problems increase and profits per hour decrease.

The problem for florists in particular, on incoming wire orders, it is not just the labor factor of the designer, but also the additonal cost of delivery. A traditional florist does not separate all the costs truely connected with incoming WS orders. The florist doesn't have a separate designer that just does wired orders or a driver and vehicle that just does delivery for these orders. In reality, florists are subsidizing the true cost of wired orders with profits from their full value business. If a florist truely did that and had 4 incoming orders for the day, the designer would be sent home and the driver would fill up the tank at the end of the delivery for those 4 orders and florists could get a better idea as to the full cost. Gas around here went up .20 this week. Did anyone change their pricing to compensate?

Fulfillment centers are geared to handle discounted incoming orders. The way the buy their product and schedule their labor allows them to handle this type of business. 1-800 fullfillment centers uses contract drives, who use their vehicles, their gas, their insurance and their labor for delivery and are paid by the delivery and not by the hour. I know of florists that are designated fillers for FTD and they too schedule designers and drivers based on work load. When the last design is done, the designers go home. The vast majority of florists are NOT geared this way.

Put both sides of the wire service pictures together and you begin to see why RC's 98% figure is not too far off.
 
Are wire service free flower shops really more profitable?

I want to hear factual evidence, not just emotionally rhetoric.

I do not want to hear, about OG's stealing our customers, that is competition.

I want to see evidence based on increased net profit. If you are more comfortable using percentages rather than gross numbers pleae do so.

I don't want this thread turning into a big argument. If I had moderating priveleges in this thread I would hold a tight rein on this thread going awry.

I want to see, hear and understand how WS-free flower shop's operations compare to WS affiliated shops.

Be honest. If you are turning a profit say it, if you are losing money say it (hopefully we can help you turn your business to a net pi).

I really want to know and learn with this thread.

Joe

I was just in my office, working on a Sunday afternoon, and I thought I would pop in here and see what was happening.

Since my OP, I have not yet seen or read any WS free shop give hard - real world - factual numbers as to being more profitable sans WS.

don't get me wrong, I want to see the flower shop that is more profitable. In other words, if I can reduce my cost of business and be more profitable, I am eager to participate, or in this case not participate (in WS's).

I am in know way defending WS affiliated flower shops with my question. I just want to see a real world example of improved profitablility.

joe
 
I may have the data your looking for!

This month has been great in sales and we were really able to see the difference from March 2005 (the last month we filled orders for 800flowers) to March 2007.

Here are some numbers.

March 2005 9% growth from prior year with 25% of sales incoming.
March 2006 21% growth from prior year with less than 1% of sales incoming.
March 2007 40% growth from prior with less than 1% of sales incoming.

Profits are up 31% to 34% for 2006 and 2007 compared to 2005. Having three years of the same months data it is telling me that it is more profitable to market yourself then allowing someone else to it.

Isn't that what it really boils down to? Now if i was saying that we experienced a 20% growth this year that would mean normal business growth. But 40% come on thats something worth looking at.

A higher growth rate and better profits without worrying about someone else setting prices, buying expensive containers and advertising to the consumer with your name and not someone else's.

I now have three months of perfect data for 2005 20006 and 2007 showing the exact same trend.
 
This month has been great in sales and we were really able to see the difference from March 2005 (the last month we filled orders for 800flowers) to March 2007.

Here are some numbers.

March 2005 9% growth from prior year with 25% of sales incoming.
March 2006 21% growth from prior year with less than 1% of sales incoming.
March 2007 40% growth from prior with less than 1% of sales incoming.

Profits are up 31% to 34% for 2006 and 2007 compared to 2005. Having three years of the same months data it is telling me that it is more profitable to market yourself then allowing someone else to it.

Isn't that what it really boils down to? Now if i was saying that we experienced a 20% growth this year that would mean normal business growth. But 40% come on thats something worth looking at.

A higher growth rate and better profits without worrying about someone else setting prices, buying expensive containers and advertising to the consumer with your name and not someone else's.

I now have three months of perfect data for 2005 20006 and 2007 showing the exact same trend.

Hi Eric thanks for the info.

From your growth it appears that it is exclusive from wire service affiliation. I don't see where your growth is a direct result from WS membership termination. It appears you are doing a whole lot of things right.

I highlighted a couple of key points in your text. In the first sentence, you allude to WS marketing v in house marketing. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't and I would bet most other WS-affiliated shops don't market their WS membership as a reason to buy from them v somewhere else.

Containers? Well I have minmized those purchases to only a few holidays. Easter has the crazy for daisies vase, which is pretty nice. Mother's Day? I have a couple, other than maybe one at christmas that is it. I agree with your implied comment that containers are not a reason to be WS-affiliated.

Again, thanks for the comments, but I am looking for more.

sincerely
Joe
 
Containers? Well I have minmized those purchases to only a few holidays. Easter has the crazy for daisies vase, which is pretty nice. Mother's Day? I have a couple, other than maybe one at christmas that is it. I agree with your implied comment that containers are not a reason to be WS-affiliated.

After hearing from cathy about the fact that most of there WS containers where sold because of incoming orders I wanted to share that when we did purchase holiday related containers are marketing for the holidays did focus on these items only. Perhaps that is where we made the mistake since now we focus on promoting our own products. The freedom that we have with own marketing of our own products continue to develop and increase. This may be the reason we see our healthy increase of sales. For instance for sometime our new baby area was sucking for a long a time. We finally found some great baskets a couple of weeks ago and began to develope our new arrangements for this part of our business. It literly took off and we are now seeing an increase in sales for the new items.

The thrill of creating something and marketing of a new product is so rewading in itself.

As far as this being because of our termination from the WS I think because we made the change it forced us to start thinking for ourselves instead of looking for the next product to upsell from someone else.

I think because more florist that focus on quality are leaving the ws. More not so hot florist are filling there orders thus reflecting upon the quality of the arrangements that consumers are getting from ordering from WS products. The calls that come in that say "I don't want an FTD looking product" are on the rise and feel it will only continue to get better for us and the other great florist that are in our area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Respectfully - I am shooting an educated guess that Eric's great growth has come from his leveraging the internet with a passion.

Am I far off base?

Not necessarily from dropping wire services. And not necessarily from offering other than the "same old wire service stuff". I really don't believe you can do much better than using the compelling products offered in images available from the wire services.

Sorry I just don't buy that "your own stuff is better" stuff. A lot of product research goes into ws offerings (I am not talking about codified holiday products here), designed by the best designers in the country, shot by the most professional photographers money can buy, and if it doesn't sell well, they don't offer it next time around.

disclaimer - exceptions to everything - there are a few, very few websites that offer comparable or even better products, but you can pretty much count them on one hand.
 
Sorry Eric, I'm calling B___ S___. Your internet push is where your growth is coming from. You spend a fortune on pay per click, you have multiple websites cross referencing each other, and you use almost all of the techniques invented by the big guys. You have a history here of not being truthfull. Read back on the posts that claim that you don't take, or charge for outgoing orders, you just give people the phone numbers of the other shop. Now look at your website.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with what you're doing. Your passion and drive is a model to emulate. All I'm saying is let's be real about what is driving your sales.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Sorry I just don't buy that "your own stuff is better" stuff. A lot of product research goes into ws offerings (I am not talking about codified holiday products here), designed by the best designers in the country, shot by the most professional photographers money can buy, and if it doesn't sell well, they don't offer it next time around.

disclaimer - exceptions to everything - there are a few, very few websites that offer comparable or even better products, but you can pretty much count them on one hand.
I'll beat the 'unique floral design' drum once again.

The sooner a shop distinguishes itself from every other cookie cutter site in it's market, the better. It's hard to rant against WSs while featuring their product images, their product numbers, and their descriptions.

Even a few unique images, strategiaclly placed, can help distinguish one shop from another.

The lack of unique product content hurts sites not only when being compared by consumers, but in search engine results, too. IMO the hardest hit are the TF templates (especially the ones without the business name, address and local phone number on the home page) but FTD sites suffer, as well.

(Of course, both companies are happy to sell you directory listings and other optimization services since their sites are SEO'd so poorly.)

Anyway, I come down on the side of the arguement urging florists to strut their own stuff and not just rely on off-the-shelf photos of someone else's work.
 
Sorry Eric, I'm calling B___ S___. Your internet push is where your growth is coming from. You spend a fortune on pay per click, you have multiple websites cross referencing each other, and you use almost all of the techniques invented by the big guys. You have a history here of not being truthfull. Read back on the posts that claim that you don't take, or charge for outgoing orders, you just give people the phone numbers of the other shop. Now look at your website.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with what you're doing. Your passion and drive is a model to emulate. All I'm saying is let's be real about what is driving your sales.

I would agree with you however like I said I still have a good amount of people calling and saying they didn't see the website. Perhaps this has to do with more consumers looking at yellowpages.com superpages and citysearch. Our access logs just don't jive showing most of our traffic comming from our blog and very little comming from natuarl results. Consumers are still drawn to some type of phone directoy when lookig for local business.

Our number one referal is still word of mouth. Our PPC is not as high as you may think. I don't compete with the big boys and it seems to me that our PPC works best targetting "VERY SPECIFIC KEYWORDS" instead of broad key words. The most important number I look at is our CTR (Click through rate) and the higher the number the more likely it results into an actual order. Looking at our analytics account and really taking the time to analize our PPC through this tool really has helped up spend less with more PPC clicks resulting into an order.

When consumers call and they aren't looking at the website we usually do direct them to it however most of the time they will say I'll take a look at it later and they just wanted to get something delivered today.


As far as our newly added Send Flowers Nationwide. Take a look at when the page was created (very very new) and it is there for a reference point for those customers that insist on sending flowers through us instead of calling direct. I think last month I sent 10 orders (dammit I guess I'll be ding for low sending fee) but that part of the business has been dead for some time for us.

I'm not upset for being called untruthful because I really haven't been. Its up to the flowerchat community read what I have to say and then take a hard look at there business and decide for themselves what works and what dosen't.

I would love to see any one else provide their own data instead of spending time on discrediting my own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Sorry I just don't buy that "your own stuff is better" stuff. A lot of product research goes into ws offerings (I am not talking about codified holiday products here), designed by the best designers in the country, shot by the most professional photographers money can buy, and if it doesn't sell well, they don't offer it next time around.

disclaimer - exceptions to everything - there are a few, very few websites that offer comparable or even better products, but you can pretty much count them on one hand.

Bloomz,

There are several problems with wire service offerings.

First, we’re not selling pictures; we’re selling flowers. When florists buy into the wire service offerings, they generally follow all the guidelines, price, number of flowers, and design. The end result never looks picture perfect, usually looks stiff and nearly always looks horribly skimpy compared to the item pictured.

But the far bigger problem is lack of differentiation from other florists, and even worse, grocery stores. This is very evident by looking at the thousands of websites floating out in cyberspace. Regardless of which style arrangement each florist picks to feature, it still looks suspiciously the same as everyone else’s.

There is a rapidly growing segment of the buying public who doesn’t want the same old cookie cutter wire service looking arrangement. Florists who are able to demonstrate they are different will win these customers over.

Finally, florists who, instead of relying on wire service offerings, rely on themselves become able to quickly move with the ever-changing availability of supplies and flowers. Florists relying on wire service offerings are often forced to react to each order, often having to buy high priced flowers and supplies to cover those orders, while in contrast, florists who rely on themselves can quickly move with the market, offering their own special arrangements using their own unique containers of choice and using flowers of their own choosing. As an example, a few weeks ago a Flowerchat poster was looking for tulips to fill a large order. In an attempt to help I purchased 225 bunches of tulips. It turned out my help wasn’t needed so I had 225 bunches of tulips to sell. I quickly created a tulip special, photographed and put it up on my website, sent out an email, and sold all the tulips within a few days. They sold so well and the flower quality was so good, I continue to run the same special off and on when this particular grower puts their tulips on special. We’ve moved through several thousand bunches over the last month, always when the price is right. This type of movement with the market doesn’t seem to happen with florists using wire service offerings. - My Tulip Special -

It’s my opinion florists need to be smarter in analyzing the profitability of their wire service memberships, instead of chasing incoming orders at any cost as most do. Until this happens the balance of power will be unfairly weighted towards the ordergatherers, and quality and service will continue to suffer because the economics no longer allow the proper care required by the filling florists.

In a perfect world if florists stopped chasing all those orders at any cost, and chose a wire service based on the services provided instead the number of orders they may receive, the wire services would no longer feel the need to pay the ordergatherers those very high rebates. Instead, they could take that money and start focusing on their membership’s real needs helping to bring quality back to our industry.



RC
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
Bloomz,

There are several problems with wire service offerings.

First, we’re not selling pictures; we’re selling flowers. When florists buy into the wire service offerings, they generally follow all the guidelines, price, number of flowers, and design. The end result never looks picture perfect, usually looks stiff and nearly always looks horribly skimpy compared to the item pictured.

YOu said a mouthful there!




As an example, a few weeks ago a Flowerchat poster was looking for tulips to fill a large order. In an attempt to help I purchased 225 bunches of tulips. It turned out my help wasn’t needed so I had 225 bunches of tulips to sell. I quickly created a tulip special, photographed and put it up on my website, sent out an email, and sold all the tulips within a few days. They sold so well and the flower quality was so good, I continue to run the same special off and on when this particular grower puts their tulips on special. We’ve moved through several thousand bunches over the last month, always when the price is right. This type of movement with the market doesn’t seem to happen with florists using wire service offerings. - My Tulip Special -



RC

Randy took a risk and initially bought these Tulips for me, thinking I might be able to use them. After he ordered them, he called me up and told me had them coming. Unfortunately, the logistics didn't work out. The price was good, but the freight was going to be prohibitive. Needless to say, that was very thoughtful of him and speaks well for his character.

Sometimes these risks payoff. I just checked Randy's website (I know what he is paying for those tulips) and that Tulip special is making this business some very good money! I am glad it has worked out for you well, Randy.

Joe
 
disclaimer - exceptions to everything - there are a few, very few websites that offer comparable or even better products, but you can pretty much count them on one hand.


Bloomz,

There is a rapidly growing segment of the buying public who doesn’t want the same old cookie cutter wire service looking arrangement. Florists who are able to demonstrate they are different will win these customers over.

RC

And you are the exception I was referring to Randy.

I've never seen anyone with the talent you have for shooting wonderful product photos.

That's your niche, and you obviously do very well filling that role. There are a couple others that are quite good, but I'd venture to say that about 95% no make that 98% of self shot images I've seen are downright embarassing.

It's something I won't even try any more unless perhaps I go take a college course on digital photography. I've tried (with 1 toe in the water admittedly) and the ones I have taken are also embarassing. I won't even put them on our website as it will downgrade the professional look. I've also noticed even the ardent anti-wire service proponents - many of them use wire service images still. I know of one very verbal anti-ws-er here that even relabels the wire service images with his own names, claiming them to be in-house unique designs - and he isn't even a member!

They're tough to beat.

I still think growth being talked about here is from leveraging the internet and not from product selections - and I also still think that 90-95% of the buying public cares less about unique floral designs. The just want pretty vases of long lasting flowers. The reason I push this idea is that those florists being sold the bill of goods that they need to take their own pictures (unless they're reall really good at it) could be selling more and leveraging their own internet sales much more effectively using professional images. That there are extremely few people who "don't want ftd-looking stuff" is proven out by the numbers the big boys own.

Eric is experiencing great sales growth because he is obsessively working the internet with his various sites - imagine that.

but....

opinions vary

These are just mine and wtfdik?
 
I just checked Randy's website (I know what he is paying for those tulips) and that Tulip special is making this business some very good money! I am glad it has worked out for you well, Randy.

Joe
Even with my inferior volume compared to Randy's, those 20 Tulips cost me $7.00 in my door, plus the vase and couple minutes labor and I too have the same retail price...good money maker....
 
Even with my inferior volume compared to Randy's, those 20 Tulips cost me $7.00 in my door, plus the vase and couple minutes labor and I too have the same retail price...good money maker....


You know it pays to be on good terms with your suppliers. I paid $4.75 delivered to my door for those 2250 tulips.

There is a good market at this time of year for Tulips and we all should be pushing more of this simple business for our customers' own personal enjoyment.

Joe
 
If you look closely at those WS images, many of them are very altered with photoshop to achieve an effect not possible in real life. I'm looking into istockphoto.com to buy royalty free stock images for our website for as little as $1 ea. I do believe people want non FTD, TF looking images, as they often specifically ask for this when they order. TF has some nice images but I'm no longer a TF member (although the bills keep coming) and I refuse to use them in any way in my store or on my web site. My web site photos were taken by me and are nothing to brag about thats for sure, but I have to start somewhere!:porttopor
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Come to think of it I did have somebody tell me once that they didn't want the same FTD looking stuff. It was 3 or 4 years ago.

To segwey this back on topic - not being able to use wire service images...benefit or detriment?
 
But the far bigger problem is lack of differentiation from other florists, and even worse, grocery stores. This is very evident by looking at the thousands of websites floating out in cyberspace. Regardless of which style arrangement each florist picks to feature, it still looks suspiciously the same as everyone else’s.
It's particularly obvious when a customer has several links to view all at once.

I was looking at the florist sites linked from the St. Louis Florist Network. Each shop is independently owned & operated, each no doubt has signature arrangements as customer favorites and can do some thing better than anyone else in the area but - you sure wouldn't know it from following most of the links.

TF templates, FTD templates and independently hosted sites using TF and FTD products. In most cases, the only thing to distinguish one from another (based on website) is location and price. Few have taken advantage of the options to insert their own image and keyword rich shop descriptions in their 'About Us' pages.

Don't get me wrong. I think this effort by Baisch and Skinner is outstanding, but they can only do so much to help florists stand out from OGs and supermarkets.

Customizing the most basic parts of those sites would only take an hour or two. Adding a few unique product images to the home page is a breeze with the self-admin tools.

No the first photos won't look like TFs or FTDs in quality, but they improve dramatically with practice. Photo editing software definitely help, too.

Sticking with cookie cutter images and sites has a high price for local florists trying to sell locally in a competitive marketplace. If you're FTD, Wal-Mart is selling everything on your site cheaper than you are. If you're TF, USAA, TF's '$10 off coupons' and the Flower Club are less than your site too - for the very same items.

Like I said earlier, if many of FTD's Top 100 real florists are featuring their own designs, doesn't that tell you something?

Look at what Walter Knoll, one of St. Louis' biggest and one of the largest florist operations in the US, is featuring: http://www.wkf.com/category.cfm/catID/1 . Hint: it ain't cookie cutter pictures.
 
The only detriment is trying to provide quality photos of your designs for your website. For example, I had to permanently borrow my husband's digital Canon, remember to take pictures of designs in the midst of getting them out of the door, master "Photoshop Elements" (well maybe just skim the surface) and find a space in my very small shop to take the pictures. And then learn how to upload to website, write appealing descriptions and titles and price. Actually these were the steps but I was doing them all at one time. Hopping back and forth. You can see the progression on the website. Well, maybe not with my creative writing skill. I was also learning how to manipulate and change the website. http://hollyhocksflowers.com The pictures with my name are my photos the others are from Floral Review. I have a gazillion more photo's but have not had the time to edit and upload to the website.

Susan
 
Well, maybe not with my creative writing skill. I was also learning how to manipulate and change the website. http://hollyhocksflowers.com The pictures with my name are my photos the others are from Floral Review. I have a gazillion more photo's but have not had the time to edit and upload to the website.Susan

Hello from England. UK.
Very interesting regarding the use of your Own images instead of using the photos from your relay/wire firm.
I am in the process of doing the same to my web site. Since over here a lot of sites rely on relay images.
I have taken a look at your images Susan & The My Tulip Special (Randy I think ). well done with the photos, may I ask What sort of camera and lighting are you both using?.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.