Creativity and/or the lack of it

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

The other day I had lunch at Subway. They were baking cookies at the time. The cookie dough comes frozen in premeasured bags of 24. The subway clerk puts them on the cookie sheet that has markings where each cookie must be placed. He places them in the oven for the exact amount of time, then takes them out and lets them cool before bagging.

This is how the typical florist would handle the same task.

I walk into the flower/cookie shop and ask for a cookie. The clerk asks me what kind. I tell him a large double chocolate chip, heavy on the dark chocolate chips if possible. The clerk then says one moment and leaves the counter to ask the baker if he can do that. He comes back and says yes, it will be ready in two hours and will cost $20. Not happy with the price and time fame, but really wanting the cookie I say OK. I leave. The baker also leaves to go to the wholesale house to buy the ingredients. He returns, and in a small mixing bowl he mixes up the batter for one cookie and bakes the cookie. I return to get my cookie, expectations high, but the clerk brings out what looks like an ordinary cookie I could have purchased from Subway for fifty cents. Expressing my disappointment at the cost and waiting time for such an ordinary cookie I get into a little spat with the clerk who in turn brings out the baker for support. I ask for my money back but am informed that the cookie was made to my specifications and no refund would be given. As I leave disgruntled with my cookie, I see the baker having a baker's fit, walking out leaving the shop without a cookie baker for the rest of the day.

_______________________________________________________________

I know this is an exaggeration and an unfair comparison, but these type situations prevent florists from taking their business to the next level. Without any form of standardization and without out breaking down complicated tasks into more simple components, florists are no better than a particular designer working at the time. If for any reason that designer leaves so does the identity of the florist, forcing the florist to rebuild from scratch.


RC

 

[Tuberose]

When I got to our shop to work it had a reputation of doing different things if that's what you wanted, the designers that were there at the time have moved on and we still have a reputation for doing different even tho the others are no longer here. The reputation is based on what the owner and manager expect of the designers, not on any one designer. Yeah, people asked for so-and-so after she left, we just proved we still had what it took and the customer was happy, no sweat. I'm sure that will be the case if I should happen to move on.

Trish

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

I think this is just one of those arguments that goes round and round between florists.

I feel very very very lucky to have worked for more than one shop. It's made me a better designer.

I have heard all my life "oh we can't sell that here" or something like it. OK, but some places they do like artsy style. Cool. I personally feel you need to be able to do both.
Doesn't mean HAVE to do both all the time.

Simply, I feel we all just want to be validated that we know what we are doing. It can get really touchy in FC because not everyone share the same opinion. but I do think we are all in the same boat.

 

[bloomz]

Wasn't Royer one of the leaders (overseeing store operations?) in the failed Gerald Stevens effort?

Seriously, JB - you're all h*ll bent on proving that custom, unique design work needs to be abolished from shops.

No I don't believe he had anything to do with the Gerald Stevens failure ::BS- tho his stores sold to Gerald Stevens - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

But that wouldn't prove anything anyway.

His success taking a shop (a converted gas station I believe) to 6 million in a city of 30,000 people just can't be discounted.

On the second point - I don't believe I've ever advocated abolishing anything (that sells) but custom designs were part of the point of the original quote (which I didn't write, by the way) - but please see the response to Tuberose below

I know Twila is AIFD and I'm sure she can do creative, which is why I don't understand why selling creative arrangements is such a handicap to him. I can also understand having a different viewpoint on a subject, having a hard time understanding why anyone would continue to beat folks over the head about this unless he enjoys yanking our chain. Will have to ask Twila when she gets back, I'm sure she has an opinion.

:argue:

Well I've never been accused of not being a chain yanker, but occasionally I have been know to post what *some* consider good advice. The 12 green dots I've gotten for starting this thread with that quote must say something.

I/we'd sell them all day long - if people bought them all day long.

opinions vary - and I personally believe this to be a key and clue to success and longevity.

Sorry that seems to offend you...we started our business wanting to be the "unique and different" florist - but alas, we had to survive and we lived and learned.

I continually hear that creative design work is the key to success and I truly believe it isn't. It's a very small part of what people want to buy. Selling what people want to buy is the key to success and following the leaders is one of my many creedos.

I have visited many times the largest single location florist in the USA and gleaned every bit I can from them. They have usually about 20-25 floral arrangers (please note I didn't say designers) on staff working, and I noticed 1 making a high styled tropical arrangement - I have looked in the cooler at the bouquets going out of there and seen the mix, and it is way way way less than 1 in 25. They are full of traditional, almost old fashioned but very beautiful, well crafted designs make of long lasting, very fresh flowers.

You just can't argue with success.

Well I guess you can, it's a free country.

RATHER THAN ARGUEING ABOUT CREATIVE VERSUS BASIC - INSTEAD - MEETS YOUR CUSTOMERS NEEDS.

I am AIFD, I am a design competition winner, I am a two-time SC State Designer of the Year......... and I need all of that learned skill to do one thing.....and one thing only.....meet my customers needs.

In a nutshell - perfect advice and attitude!

So if you want to position your shop similar to Avante Gardens or Jacob Maarse or any of the successful Artist Florists, there's nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with trying to position your store like Bloomz' or Randy's.

Some shops or customer bases just don't want famcy schmancy, period...

I am changing slowly...by Goldfish's post I am changing from the neighborhood flower shop the the merchant florist niche...My arrangements are well crafted and not too artsy but do not look like the hospital cooler... Cookie cutter to me is not neccessarily carns and poms in a round mond basket....Cookie cutter to me is reusing the same basic design over and over...or the same basic vase over and over...I can regualrly change the flowers in it and change the look but it is still the same basic design that takes no thought and can be whipped up in 10 minutues...

Every shop is different. I had a choice to be a starving artist and carry what I liked and what I wanted to work with and not sell it all or conform to what my customers wanted and sell and grow...

We've picked our niche. It works for us.

Absolutely and unquestionably - would that more shops had the design talent and reputation that the Hillen-Rulloda team does - it would be a different world.

But they don't and that's the name of that tune.

By the way - I didn't take that quote out of context - I didn't write it - it stood for exactly what it said, and I'm sure Ken knew what he was talking about.

You're all forgetting, Twila and Bloomzie are two different animals in the same skin. Under the same roof you have Twila(the tigeress), an accomplished designer-business person-organizer, and local P/R.

Under the same roof you have Bloomzie(big foot), the stay local, think global guy.

They have the best of both worlds going, and I admire them for that.

Bloomzie wants to send easy to arrange flower arrangements, so that any florist any where in the world can do the arrangement with no call backs from his customer(cookie cutter). Thats Bloomzies part of the business. Well I'm sure the main part, I've heard he cleans buckets also.

His brain works one way for his part of the business, plus he's on the left coast. And that's the reason this topic will come up again, he's to the left of most of us.

Yes but no Jerry, on that point you're wrong - I am extremely concerned with expanding our local sales so we could survive without the order gathering part of it, because there's no guarantees that that will live forever. I have a family and very much want my business to live on to support my wife and child after I am gone.

From my recollection (I don't have the book here), he chose the merchant niche, because he wanted his business grow into a multi-store florist.

To be an "Artist florist", I think you need two things: talent and name recognition. Don't discount the importance of the latter (name recognition). Average consumers buy a brand name, not the art itself. Who would buy Picasso's painting if it didn't have his name on it?

Some florist might have a design talent of Avante Garden caliber, but no name recognition. Most of us have neither.

As far as I know, Cathy and her husband were already well-known when they started Avente Garden in 1984. Few of us has that kind of intangible asset to build our business on. Most of us have practically nothing to begin with.

On top of that, I (owner) am not a designer. I cannot build my business solely based on the design talent of a particular employee, however good she might be. What am I supposed to do if she leaves?

Here is where I think a lot of us miscommunicate.

The everyday stuff will generally outsell the artsy one-off stuff hands down every day.

A florist can have and should have and need both styles in their shops.

The last thing a flower shop owner needs is one less sale.

joe

From what I see personally - way over 20-1, perhaps as high as 50-1.

_______________________________________________________________

I know this is an exaggeration and an unfair comparison, but these type situations prevent florists from taking their business to the next level. Without any form of standardization and without out breaking down complicated tasks into more simple components, florists are no better than a particular designer working at the time. If for any reason that designer leaves so does the identity of the florist, forcing the florist to rebuild from scratch.


RC

Egggzactry!

The part in all this that hasn't been mentioned, is how 800TFTD is kicking our asses around all the blocks selling what you all (well pretty much all) call cookie cutters (I find this to be an egregious misnomer).

Do people buy grocery store bouquets simply because they're cheap? I don't think so - they fill a need that the consumer has. They certainly don't buy them because they're ugly. They do get skrude on longevity tho I'm sure, which is sad for us all cuz it's a big part of why people don't think flowers are a good value (they just wilt).

I'm gonna repeat what I stated last week - my *guess* is the 800TFTD "machine" sells more of those "cookie cutters" in a day than any florist in the US sells in a year. I/you/most of us need to take a lessons from the big sellers of floral arrangements.

"Cookie cutters" are what allow us to survive and create and sell that occasional high styled arrangement we too love to do. Dazzling someone is emotionally very satisfying.

We're quite capable of doing them - it's just the public, nationwide has proven itself (thru the sheer volume of those 800TFTD sales) that they're not that interested in buying them.

Those newer bouquets on tf.com - if those are "cookie cutters" - well call them what you like - I love them and would like to sell a million of them.

I'll choose to call them beautiful, appealing, excellent sellers. They don't design, photograph and promote them because they don't sell.

There's another section in the book about Carriage Trade florists - I'll start a new "chain yanker" thread about that when I get there but I'm taking my time reading it this time.

OK - back on the block - great weekend - thanks for letting me share

I know

opinions vary...

bloomz - peace - out

 

[LJVF]

Is the choice "fun or (profitability and longevity)", or "(fun or profitability) and longevity"? Are fun and profitability mutually exclusive? If the business isn't fun (which can include counting gold), you won't do a good job at it, no matter how much you make. That is, after all, why we all own our own businesses.

Find your identity, your happy place, and get there or be there.

In the end, who will have lived a "better" life--Mother Theresa or Donald Trump?

I agree, you are right. Success is defined differently by different people. But sometimes a bit of "selling out" is a necessary evil to allow one to continue to do what they want in life.

Even Christian Bale or the like will act in a blockbuster summer movie to support a lifestyle, while giving him the opportunities for the true love of acting in an independent film.

 

[Flame]

Bloomz I think it was a real good post and one that opens your eyes to alot of what is not only going on around you but also what is going on with the rest of the world and what everyone does to survive.

Regardless of people's different opinions - every one has one and so they all should - but its also good to see everyone else's ideas/sugguestions and firey comments to either adjust your own shop/keep up with what your doing or just give you another motivational way to enjoy working with flowers Thats why I love FC!!!!

 

[Joe Mioux]

I like Subway's cookies,

I also like McDonald's French Fries

Consistency shouldn't be discounted when dealing with consumers.

I read the florists' negative comments about cookie cutter designs.

I rarely see these shops advocating listening to what the customer wants or desires.

Remember, we see flower designs everyday, the consumer doesn't. So what looks like a boring cookie cutter to you, won't have that same look, feel or emotional impact to the consumer.

There is a huge difference between you the floral designer and the customer.

On TF's website there are three popular arrangements that I have to make on a pretty regular basis. An all white arrangement in a basket, a cube arrangement with orange lilies and hot pink roses and an Easel arrangement with peach roses, pink carns and some white daisies. these orders come from all over the country, which leads me to think that customers are customers are customers -- no matter if they live on the east coast, west coast, on a mountain, below sea level or in a corn field.

Joe

 

[Jerry]

Yes but no Jerry, on that point you're wrong - I am extremely concerned with expanding our local sales so we could survive without the order gathering part of it, because there's no guarantees that that will live forever. I have a family and very much want my business to live on to support my wife and child after I am gone.

And this is why I respect you and your "varying opinions" more then you know. You keep your eye on the ball, at all times.

P.S. You are the nicest chain yanker here, and don't you forget it.

 

[RWK]

One little item that has been overlooked in all of this.......

IF and it is a BIG if, Your designer's have the proper skills - There is NO LEGITIMATE REASON why that standardized design cannot have taste, style, creativity, and distinction. Creative may be something as simple as putting beargrass loops in a roundy-moundy design.......or adding a unique ribbon treatment..........or a stylistic paint treatment on a glass vase......or any manner of things.


Look at the recent thread that featured Randy's Christmas centerpeices. STANDARDIZED DESIGN BASES - GORGEOUS FLOWERS - WELL CRAFTED, DISTINCTIVE, CREATIVE - ABOVE AVERAGE DESIGN -

Creative, Unique, and standardized........and it meets the customer's needs.

And it the customer wants to send that design to another area.........It is easily described so that the recieving florist can do at least a reasonable copy of that design.

Whether or not that filling shop has the skill and desire to meet that customer's needs and fill that order is another story.

 

[CHR]

No I don't believe he had anything to do with the Gerald Stevens failure ::BS- tho his stores sold to Gerald Stevens - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

IMO Gerald Stevens was an example of how systematic overlay atop vibrant, dynamic companies was a mistakenly applied approach. The synergy never appeared, and the 'personalities' of the well-established stores (product mix, design & service) were quashed in favor of "cookie cutter" operations. The highest paid (and most experienced) designers & managers were let go to trim payroll since 'the system' would run the stores.

Actually, two Royers were in the leadership of Gerald Stevens, Greg - who was VP and COO of the Retail Division, and Ken - who was a company Director.

I continually hear that creative design work is the key to success and I truly believe it isn't.

Who said that? Not me. There's a huge cocktail of sales, quality, service, presentation, marketing and advertising and no single element is THE KEY. Design is just one element that can give a company an edge over the competition, but it ain't the only one.

I have visited many times the largest single location florist in the USA and gleaned every bit I can from them.

Let's take a look at the website home page. Four of the eight designs are unique-to-their-store, including a tropical in the upper left corner. There's a nice mix of classics, including some very low price offerings. Of course, they're all 'reciped' to control cost and inventory, but they've chosen to present a selection of their own unique products. Doesn't seem to bother them that their unique products can't be wired out of town.

Shoppers can still order one-of-a-kinds on their site, too.

You just can't argue with success.

Exactly.

 

[bloomz]

Actually, two Royers were in the leadership of Gerald Stevens, Greg - who was VP and COO of the Retail Division, and Ken - who was a company Director.

I stand corrected - :squish:

but it still has nothing to do with his original premise - that they were more profitable due to the lack of "creative" custom individualized arrangements.

As for McShan's - you need to visit there and see a hugely successful operation in action - it is quite awe inspiring (to me, anyway) to see someone manage and do 500 deliveries a day.

And you can see the product mix in action - truly a leader to follow in my book.

Side trip - I got on my local pool team just to play with (and hence get advice from) the very best player in town - guy just had a knack and shot the nutz off darn near anyone.

This has something to do with why I like being part of the MAS family - just one of the intangible benefits.:dearbob:

 

[Tuberose]

Well said Kathy and the point is that you need to be well rounded in your offering in order to please the customers and have all the bases covered in many other aspects of your operation as well.

To me the original concept of this thread is pushing that the only way to be successful is to sell only cookie cutter designs. If the grocery stores offer this at a, usually much discounted price, why would anyone carry only that type of product only at a higher price? Another major factor which drives grocery sales is convenience, guys get brownie points for grabbing a few flowers along with the milk. Ordering a cookie cutter off the internet, again convenience and cheap too, free delivery, discounts, coupons, etc. You can't tell me price isn't a major factor there too, we get calls for roses and they are aghast that we aren't selling our dozens at the $19.99 price point that the grocers are or as online for drop ship.

You can successfully offer contemporary in with the old fashioned arrangements, to limit that offering either way is narrowing your prospective clientele, meaning less dollars. We pick up clientele from both sides of the coin and we are happy to do it. We have shops in our town that get an order for an arrangement for high style and different, the shop sends a cookie cutter, they've lost that client. We've picked up 4 new florists from out of town this way, they send their orders to us now. If they only want a traditional vase, we do a vase, or they may want different, we have that capability.

I'm finding that across the board, creativity is being frowned upon as costing too much, $$cha ching$$ is all that seems to matter, for buyers as well as sellers and employers. We're turning into a cookie cutter society, we buy our clothes, food, flowers and anything else that way, if we try to express an individuality or creativeness it is frowned upon. We are privileged to work in an industry where many times we have an option to step out of the box, and be more than a bean counter, hard to do that if you're selling auto parts or milk.


trish

 

[lori042499]

IMO Gerald Stevens was an example of how systematic overlay atop vibrant, dynamic companies was a mistakenly applied approach. The synergy never appeared, and the 'personalities' of the well-established stores (product mix, design & service) were quashed in favor of "cookie cutter" operations. The highest paid (and most experienced) designers & managers were let go to trim payroll since 'the system' would run the stores.

Actually, two Royers were in the leadership of Gerald Stevens, Greg - who was VP and COO of the Retail Division, and Ken - who was a company Director.

Who said that? Not me. There's a huge cocktail of sales, quality, service, presentation, marketing and advertising and no single element is THE KEY. Design is just one element that can give a company an edge over the competition, but it ain't the only one.

Let's take a look at the website home page. Four of the eight designs are unique-to-their-store, including a tropical in the upper left corner. There's a nice mix of classics, including some very low price offerings. Of course, they're all 'reciped' to control cost and inventory, but they've chosen to present a selection of their own unique products. Doesn't seem to bother them that their unique products can't be wired out of town.

Shoppers can still order one-of-a-kinds on their site, too.

Exactly.

Of all the pictures on that front page I bet that the watering can with daisies and the squat vase with gerbs mums and poms out sell everything else....They are well designed small arrangements that are average and good value(stuffed full in customer speak) I bet thet the tropical one gets ordered much less often...just because it doesn't hold the same value as the full ones...for the money...

I think the pictures on the website are very nice all of them but as we said we look at arrangements differently than customers and sometimes it is hard for us to see. I always run new things by my mom or my husband just because I need an untrained eye to tell me the honest truth about the way something looks. They are kind of like my focus group...I also have friends that I will send new things to to let me know what they think...value wise, marketability wise etc.

 

[LJVF]

To me the original concept of this thread is pushing that the only way to be successful is to sell only cookie cutter designs.

I disagree, I took it as one man's idea of one possible path to success.

I will take another stab at interpreting the quote of Mr. Royer that Bloomz originally posted:

As time went on with the organization growning larger and larger, creativity becaomse very difficult to institutionalize. As the company grew, carefully crafted, long-lasting arrangements become the trademark of Royer's Flowers along with their outstanding value. "Creative" was not a word immediately associated with Royer's. We had the ability to be creative, but because of how we positioned ourselves and how we marketed ourselves and how we organized ourselves, we created an image that did not attract customers seeking high-priced, individually styled custom arrangements. I'm sure that the LACK of these orders has consistently ADDED to our profitability, but I must confess I am somewhat sad about that developement becuase I personally liked to do those kinds of arrangements. It was part of the fun of being a florist.

Excluding any intrinsic values as RJD had previously mentioned, the object of a business is to develop a plan that would create and increase demand for it's products while at the same time project as accurately as possible the supply necessary to meet this demand. This would be the point where the supply and the demand curves intersect. Supplying what you know will sell to meet demand is efficient. Supplying what you think may sell can be inefficient.

Sure, there will always be a customer who will want those uniques pieces that you create on a whim, but can you find that customer consistently? Or will your supply exceed demand?

I think one area that is consistent with struggling florists is that they tend to "chase" orders. Trying to acquire specific flowers or hard goods, rather than use inventory can be extremely inefficient. Another area of inefficiency, especially for higher volume shops, is not standardizing arrangements and filling too many custom orders. I hate using the restaurant as a comparison, but it fits in this case: what if a restaurant allowed too many customers to order off the menu? The probability of that restaurant folding in a short period would be pretty high.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a florist being creative as long as there is a big enough demand for what they're creating and they can predict how much to supply. This is where I think Bloomz makes an excellent point regarding the traditional "cookie cutters". It is a proven fact that there is a demand for these and because they are standardized, it makes production efficient because demand and supply are more easily predictable.

This is just one opinion to one possible path toward success. There are many others as well, please do not take offense.

 

[bloomz]

To me the original concept of this thread is pushing that the only way to be successful is to sell only cookie cutter designs.

trish

Trish - where did it say the only way?

It had several caveats included in the original quote.

I think you're choosing to take offense at a true statement.

And there you go using that misnomer - "cookie cutter" again. Ken never used that term nor did I.

I posted it as written (with my spelling errors), and my take on the choices it gave us, along with my obvious choice of the choices available.

We'd love to sell "creative" - if it sold well. Heck, cratch that - we do sell creative, every single bouquet we sell has creativity in it, whether it was made from a wire service image or not.

I wish we were busy enough to "standardize" more...and I'm working on it.:bouncy:

 

[yellowroses]

Do any of you creative people know what the 75th anniversary flower is? I've searched the net and can't find a thing. I've been asked to do centerpieces in mason jars (not my type of thing for designing--they gave me the jars) It is for the 75th anniversary of an Insurance Co. They want to spend $25.00 for each arrangment and want them to be vintage looking. The thought of daisies ect. really turns me off. I have no idea what was popular 75 years ago!!! Any ideas out there?

 

[RWK]

For all those of you who champion the "cookie-cutter" arrangement, answer me one question.

Where is it written that a cookie cutter type arrangement can't be a creative, unique, well designed, above average level of design, made with class style and distinction?

That idea that a cookie cutter is plain and uninspired is coming across in your commentary.

 

[bloomz]

Eggzactly!

Cookie cutter is a crappy name.

I don't know why they don't just call them wire service images, cuz that's what they usually mean.

And it's still a crappy name for those as well.

Standardized arrangements would be way more accurate, and nearly all of the bigger successful florists in the country do those.

We have a "branded products" program (read as - menu) of offerings that I'm sure some would call cookie cutters.

 

[CHR]

Cookie cutter = *yawn*

Did you read where Mrs. Fields Cookies filed bankruptcy this week? They used to be popular, were widely copied, didn't change their product mix and were finally beaten by cheap knockoffs. The specialness of Mrs. Fields was gone.

What can each of us do with our product mix to continue to make them be pereceived as special? The answers are many and varied, but when the specialness goes, so do a chunk of customers.

 

[RWK]

Do any of you creative people know what the 75th anniversary flower is? I've searched the net and can't find a thing. I've been asked to do centerpieces in mason jars (not my type of thing for designing--they gave me the jars) It is for the 75th anniversary of an Insurance Co. They want to spend $25.00 for each arrangment and want them to be vintage looking. The thought of daisies ect. really turns me off. I have no idea what was popular 75 years ago!!! Any ideas out there?

While this would be better served in it's own thread.......I'll try and answer as best I can.

As far as I know, there isn't a symbolic flower variety representing the 75th anniversary. I do know that most listings of gifts appropriate for anniversaries call the 75th anniversary the Diamond Anniversary.

So, to include that symbolism of diamonds.....I might would do a crystal cut vase or bowl, all white classic blooms such as roses, carnations, peonys, etc. ( basically mass pattern flowers), minimal greens, and a lavish use of faux diamonds and other gemstones.

In fact, if memory serves me correctly, Accent Decor has a great line of faux diamonds ranging in size from as small as a 1/2 inch width going all the way up to 8 or 9 inches width.

If they are looking for a more vintage look than use of diamonds, then I would use ivory or cream colored flowers, antique lace, tulle, low, round, and compact designs.

[EDIT] SInce the company gave you mason jars to work with, I would go opposite of the above suggestion then......Work with the venue to set up a barnyard, old time vintage look with the tablecloths, plates, flatware all reflecting a vintage or country barnyard look....and put a compact, loosely tied assortment of country, meadow style flowers in the jars.