HonestFlorist.com - one to keep an eye on

[bloomz]

Just to clarify - Are you saying that Ted is one of the crappy or the preferred? I think you mean preferred, but it at first read it sounds like crappy.

Just checking

Since he sends orders to us, I'm guessing preferred.

That's what I figured ... but I didn't want your good name to be tarnished in the eyes of any readers who don't know you & JB

Good guesses all - sorry if I didn't word that right - it was 3:30 AM last nite after a rock concert.

Teds a whack job and runs one heckofagood florist business.


But did he answer my question? Isn't there was less good places to send an order in Anaheim than Ted's?

Sheesh, I'm grammar challenged today - blame it on the rock and roll.:bouncy:

 

[Bigted]

Good guesses all - sorry if I didn't word that right - it was 3:30 AM last nite after a rock concert.

Teds a whack job and runs one heckofagood florist business.


But did he answer my question? Isn't there was less good places to send an order in Anaheim than Ted's?

Sheesh, I'm grammar challenged today - blame it on the rock and roll.:bouncy:

Yes, there are clearly crappy florists in Anaheim, and they do have websites, and nowhere does it say they are crappy.

 

[bloomz]

So - to continue the discussion of the premise, suppose someone finds me instead of one of those crappy florists - and I send the order to Ted, knowing he doesnt skim incoming and uses fresh flowers, good designs, efficient fast delivery - then they got a better deal using me, the HOG, than crapshooting one of those others they probably found on a directory or an online YP who only requires a check with zero assumption of quality other than their check didn't bounce.

Of course you have to put aside for a moment that you'd obviously rather have them find you direct. That's a big DUH

Butt - they also could have gone thru TFTD and had the order go to the florist that owes them the most money, not exactly a sign of a good place for good value either.

Hence - the consumer who has no experience with finding a quality florist is often better off using an honest order gatherer (generally speaking).

I rest my case

I think


are we chatting now?

 

[RJD]

Hence - the consumer who has no experience with finding a quality florist is often better off using an honest order gatherer (generally speaking).

No. To start with, how would a customer who doesn't know the good florists from the bad be able to tell an "H"OG from an OG?

And what do you mean by "better off"?

1. Most OGs have a service charge. There is no benefit to the consumer there.

2. You're only thinking in terms of sending a generic arrangement to a florist who's at least half decent. We can provide guidance on local customs, and we know what's in our cooler. The old "make it nice" or "something different" isn't doing much for the customer.

 

[CHR]

Yes, there are clearly crappy florists in Anaheim, and they do have websites, and nowhere does it say they are crappy.

Sure it does.... have you read some of their user reviews? The crappy ones generally don't have prominent web placement nor do they advertise much either...

 

[CHR]

they got a better deal using me, the HOG, than crapshooting one of those others they probably found on a directory or an online YP

I know for a fact that Gary Butts (Locateaflowershop.com) and MLou (ilocalflorist.com) will delete paying florist customers if they receive complaints from users.

Those directories have more integrity than the WSs - and their listings show up better in SERPs than Findaflorist.com and FTD's member directory - so calling them a crapshoot is just plain wrong.

Hence - the consumer who has no experience with finding a quality florist is often better off using an honest order gatherer (generally speaking).

No. To start with, how would a customer who doesn't know the good florists from the bad be able to tell an "H"OG from an OG?

What RJD said!

Since we're in the Honest Florist thread, how many OGs honestly tell consumers *up front* that they pay a delivery and a separate service change? How many disclose the cost of local delivery with the price of each arrangement they display? How many line item it out in the shopping cart?

....... I'm waiting........


..... still waiting...........


.... um..........


I believe that answer would be zero.

I guess "honest" has a sliding definition depending on whether it affects income.

Added: I know this post comes off witchy ... can you tell I'm a bit over the word 'honest' since it's more about marketing than real disclosure, transparency and truthfulness to consumers?

 

[bloomz]

ahh you know I luvs a good heated discussion.....:bouncy:

No. To start with, how would a customer who doesn't know the good florists from the bad be able to tell an "H"OG from an OG?

Do you mean a HOG from a DOG? Good question I'm not sure I have the answer for.

And what do you mean by "better off"?

1. Most OGs have a service charge. There is no benefit to the consumer there.
Not necessarily true - the benefit of a reasonable service charge is access to the list of good florists - absolutely a huge benefit properly applied. That's what I mean by better off. It's way worth having an assumption of quality. (for the record - I definitely think $14.95-19.95 is excessive - yet people pay it millions of times a year - what's up with that? and the weighting given by TFTD as to who owes them money over quality)


2. You're only thinking in terms of sending a generic arrangement to a florist who's at least half decent.


I'm most certainly not talking half decent or generic so so bouquets. I am talking about knowing who does the most professional job again using freshest flowers, good designers, and fast efficient delivery service - things not found in the majority of florists in the US.

I sir am talking about attempting to only deal with the best of the best. I hardly seek out half decent for my customers, that's silly, ludicrous - ah what's the word?


We can provide guidance on local customs, and we know what's in our cooler. The old "make it nice" or "something different" isn't doing much for the customer.
Why can't an OG provide guidance on those same things? It simply goes back to experience or being a long distance floral delivery expert.

I know for a fact that Gary Butts (Locateaflowershop.com) and MLou (ilocalflorist.com) will delete paying florist customers if they receive complaints from users.

Those directories have more integrity than the WSs - and their listings show up better in SERPs than Findaflorist.com and FTD's member directory - so calling them a crapshoot is just plain wrong.

You don't know of any that will accept you sight unseen with no quality check? How about all of them? And - how many complaints do you really think go back to the directory that they were found in? Seriously.


They're a crapshoot for the consumer.

More integrity than wire service directories is not that good of criteria.

(I'm not trying to offend Gary or Mlou by the way - they try their best to run tight ships, but they're powerless to do quality inspections or test orders of prospective members)



Since we're in the Honest Florist thread, how many OGs honestly tell consumers *up front* that they pay a delivery and a separate service change? How many disclose the cost of local delivery with the price of each arrangement they display? How many line item it out in the shopping cart?

....... I'm waiting........


..... still waiting...........


.... um..........


I believe that answer would be zero.

Why would that be a requirement? Because another florist thinks so? If the consumer shops there, that seems to be their choice. As usual, the argument is with marketing vernacular, and the beauty is - the last thing I or anyone else would or should do, is let either my peers or my competitors tell me what I must say in my marketing vernacular.

I also think consumers deserve the right to a second choice if the product isn't available, but that's another topic, as well as disclosure of where the business is located being plainly labeled, yet another topic.

I guess "honest" has a sliding definition depending on whether it affects income.

Opinions vary...

Added: I know this post comes off witchy ... can you tell I'm a bit over the word 'honest' since it's more about marketing than real disclosure, transparency and truthfulness to consumers?

Maybe I come across as male witchy (is that warlocky?), but it seemed like the above was directed at me. I could have been wrong and if so apologize in advance.

PS I'm with you on the use or misuse of the word honest but that doesn't mean the word sucks or particularly anyone that uses it sucks as well, OR - that it's not possible to honestly provide a good service to consumers. I do know what you mean about using it for marketing, but I'm not using it for that purpose in this discussion.

I simply don't believe this "find a local florist" is the end all of increasing consumer confidence - quite the opposite - there's quite simply too many crappy ones out there. I know when we get a complaint, and it's 99% of the time not from a florist on the Preferred List.

OK I do think it's TV time -yippee!

 

[CHR]

To start with, how would a customer who doesn't know the good florists from the bad be able to tell an "H"OG from an OG?

Do you mean a HOG from a DOG? Good question I'm not sure I have the answer for.

So in essence, it's a crapshoot, too. :>

1. Most OGs have a service charge. There is no benefit to the consumer there.

Not necessarily true - the benefit of a reasonable service charge is access to the list of good florists - absolutely a huge benefit properly applied.

How many online consumers understand that service charge is not a delivery or shipping fee?


I remember a couple different efforts where websites charged membership or usage fees to access a list of preferred, qualified florists. Few (if any) consumers were even willing to pay $5 to get the direct name and contact info of a local florists. They expect to get such data online for free.

IMO the vast majority of OG customers do not understand that the service fee isn't for local delivery and I'll tell you why....


For many years, FTD's rules required all members to line item all fees - product, delivery & service charge. It was even part of test shopping and members could be fined or suspended for not giving proper receipts.

The company insisted on transparency. That policy (and many other now dropped for convenience sake) prevented the shenanigans we see today.


FTD.com even had a small note with each product saying 'price includes delivery'. But too many shoppers questioned why they had to pay delivery & a service fee. With other OGs omitting that truth (honesty), FTD was at a competitive disadvantage (as evinced by numerous customer reviews on sites like epinions.com), so they simply abandoned the explanation.

As has also been mentioned on numerous occasions here, TF explains their 'service fee' under the Delivery Policy heading. No mention that the product price includes local delivery.


In short, the explanation that many customers understand and happily pay a $10 - $15 service fee above the local delivery (already included in the displayed price), whether from a hOG or a dOG, is specious. Especially in today's economy.

I've seen OGs call it a Service/Handling charge and a Service/Delivery fee which IMO directly implies the price of hand delivery is not included in the product price.

It may well be justified in the retailer's mind... but is it honest to the consumer?


BTW, this discussion of hidden fees is directed at OGs in general. Just because 'they all do it' doesn't make it right.


Hard to believe opinions would vary on this one.....

 

[Queen of Weddings]

Oh My, yes everything is right on so far, But I do have an issue that I would like to make, as you know I would, Ok say one of you make a great arrangment,which I know all of you do here, and it goes to say a woman who has the day from Hades, and hates it, and then sends a pic and a review that she didn't like it, then goes on to say how bad you are on the said site or any other for that matter, So then what, and you know in your heart and soul you did a great arrangment, Design is that of the passion of who you are and about, and So then what happens, If this one wacka do make your life miseraable them what, also I do think that everyone knows about what they are paying to the WS and the OG for that matter, For example a woman came last week to bye local things then stated she was going to do all of her out of town gift from 1-800 when I explained all the fee's and such she said she knew all of this, but the reason was that of accountantability, That they would make sure it was done right, because she had been let down so many times by local florist when ordering, No how in the world do you explain that to someone,,,?? So I told her I would take all the orders for free , yes free, and make sure that the shops did there job, and if she wasn't happy then she lost nothing, but if she is happy she would have to pay, Well let me tell she came in this morning and paid for all of them, and glowing that they were exactly as I told her they would be done, I thank those shops on here, yes on here, are the ones that I used for each and everyone of them, So if you explain to the customer and let them have faith that you will take care of the order, then it will be yours, So now I am learning the side of things that I never experienced before, yes it was there, but more so than before,,this is in even in your local business, you have to instill trust,faith in what you do , and heavens, be able to justify what you do, and make it right for the customer to keep coming back to you, and they will trust you for all the sales, She now has passed the word on to other friends as well, about what I did for her....So it goes to show what we can do one day at a time,,PS sorry but thought this was a good as place as any to put this post, but it is sad that is always the ones posting on this board debating, where are the others at,,,Oh well, that is the difference, hugs to all of you..

 

[LJVF]

FTD.com even had a small note with each product saying 'price includes delivery'. But too many shoppers questioned why they had to pay delivery & a service fee. With other OGs omitting that truth (honesty), FTD was at a competitive disadvantage (as evinced by numerous customer reviews on sites like epinions.com), so they simply abandoned the explanation.

In this particular epinion review, the reviewer does somewhat confirm bloomz point about the preferred list on the New York order. However it is contradicted on the Hawaii order.

Would I Buy from FTD Again?

Surprisingly enough, the answer is "yes," especially in New York City or some place that I know would have a large supply of good florists. I expect that FTD contracts with the better florists in the area, so if they have a large pool of good florists to work with, then there are fewer chances of problems. They have a nice selection of arrangements. Plus, every time I've dealt with their Customer Service reps on the phone (for this order and in previous years), I've found them to be pleasant and helpful.

I wouldn't use FTD (or any other online store) for a fancy arrangement in Hawaii. I tried another website (JustFlowers.com) and had a similar experience with the arrangement that was delivered not looking anything like the picture. The freshness of the flowers has never been an issue, so I would be comfortable ordering a dozen roses or a bunch of tulips, but I think something fancier would require a face-to-face meeting with the florist who is doing the arrangement.

But the bottom line, this customer recommends FTD:

Recommended:
Yes

 

[CHR]

Would you call that a 'qualified' recommendation?

What about the rest of my post regarding line item fees? Do you believe it is or is not material to a consumer?

Why do you think FTD removed the "includes delivery" text and TF puts the fee under 'delivery'?

 

[Bigted]

Let's be clear about this preferred list concept. For most florists it is a list of shops that you sent to and didn't receive any complaints. It goes back to what I said, that most customers just want to get what they ordered. Is that worth going to a good OG? I don't know, but let's think about what the customer pays.

Bloomz says going to him is often times better than going direct, because you might get a crappy florist if you go online. A couple of thoughts. OGs like him have got to be a tiny percentage of the total population. Most will send out anyorder to anybody just to keep the volume up. That means using an OG gives you the same percentage of success (in the big picture) as just going online--except for one thing--the amount of money received by the filling shop compared to the amount paid by the customer.

A $60 arrangement bought by the customer incurs a $9.99 service charge from an OG. That means the shop gets about $44 or 62% of the $70 spent by the customer. It's hard to believe that, on average, the arrangement will look better using an OG preferred florist getting $44 than an online florist actually getting $70.

 

[bloomz]

How many online consumers understand that service charge is not a delivery or shipping fee?

BTW, this discussion of hidden fees is directed at OGs in general. Just because 'they all do it' doesn't make it right.

Hard to believe opinions would vary on this one.....

It's a moot point IMHO because I've always felt consumers look at the gross anyway - slice and dice and line item all you like but they still paid $64.95 for those flowers.

You shoulda seen he line items on my van purchase last year. Do you think I drove away going "oh yeah, I only paid $___ cuz this part doesn't really count?"

And - we charged a "relay fee" way before we became long distance delivery specialists. I bet the majority of florists do charge relay fees - are they somehow excused from this from this discussion/indictment because of .....of.....of.....I don't know what?

What about the rest of my post regarding line item fees? Do you believe it is or is not material to a consumer?

No I do not - only the gross price counts - see above.

 

[CHR]

A $60 arrangement bought by the customer incurs a $9.99 service charge from an OG. That means the shop gets about $44 or 62% of the $70 spent by the customer. It's hard to believe that, on average, the arrangement will look better using an OG preferred florist getting $44 than an online florist actually getting $70.

Well said, sir. :bouquet2:

 

[bloomz]

Bloomz says going to him is often times better than going direct, because you might get a crappy florist if you go online. A couple of thoughts. OGs like him have got to be a tiny percentage of the total population. Most will send out anyorder to anybody just to keep the volume up. That means using an OG gives you the same percentage of success (in the big picture) as just going online--except for one thing--the amount of money received by the filling shop compared to the amount paid by the customer.

A $60 arrangement bought by the customer incurs a $9.99 service charge from an OG. That means the shop gets about $44 or 62% of the $70 spent by the customer. It's hard to believe that, on average, the arrangement will look better using an OG preferred florist getting $44 than an online florist actually getting $70.

Forgive me but first cup of coffee.

Two questions - Are you saying someone would get a different bouquet in your shop by going direct than they would get choosing the same bouquet on my site and me sending it to you?

Why?

I know that isn't true in my store - send it to me or send it thru Ted but you're still gonna get the same thing. .

I fairly well know that isn't true in your store either Ted.

"on the average" changes dramatically when one has a good list of who doesn't curtail incoming

And - saying OG's don't care who they send to or how it comes out is just - well, silly.

I'm sure I'm the only one that cares more than a bit about repeat cutomers - not.

that argument also would seem to be more than specious.

(Hey we got us a new word up in here - thanks Joe!)

 

[CHR]

I bet the majority of florists do charge relay fees - are they somehow excused from this from this discussion/indictment

Charging a relay fee, service charge or processing fee is totally legit. Calling it a delivery fee and then withholding the money isn't.

The FTC called that 'witholding undisclosed fees' and stated it was a violation of consumer laws last year. Unfortunately, dOGs are so far under the radar, it would take a concerted grass roots effort from locals to see anything done about it.

 

[lori042499]

I must chime in here....I have been taking orders for 26 years for various flower shops....The issue of WS line item has always been one that I personally thought the customer should understand....Most of the florists I have worked for over that years DID NOT want the customer to know what they were paying for....It was told to take the amount of the arrangement and add on service fee and tax give customer the total....This worked out fine and dandy when years ago the 3.00 delivery fee was taken out and the service charge was 4 or 5 bucks if that...it didn't add up to much and was easily snuck by without explaining too much, also what else were you to do if aunt martha had a birthday and you needed flowers sent today...

Now that service charges are up most being greater than 6 buck with an average of 9-12 dollars industry wide ogs and regular florists, and delivery charges averaging 10 dollars, well Lucy we've got some splaining to do with 20.00 dollars going to what the customer percieves as nothing...now you ask yourself why does the customer percieve this as nothing, because for years we never put a value on this great service we provided, never did we tout how great it was that for a fee we would deliver their gift anywhere in the world same day or within 24-48 hours...we hid it from them like we were stealing their money...

Now today we have some really savvy internet people treating the WS game the same way we did for years because they saw how people have no idea what they are paying for and accept it so freely...opens people up for the "theft". People we the florist have noone to blame but ourselves for everything that has happened to our industry. We all created this monster from the very beginning...now it may be too big to get under control...

I get people who come into my shop all the time and ask how the WS charges work. I tell them, some I lose quickly, some listen and don't like it...some just accept it and pay the charges...My favorites are the ones who ask me for the name of a florist where they want to send flowers....Some of you likely give this info out if you do not belong to a service...I feel that I pay for the list of florists because I provide a service, I need to get paid for that service..I get paid for that service because your chances of getting a good arrangement with my guidance is probably far better than the average customer going online and wading through the sea of hogs, dogs, bad florists and non florists....I have no problem telling my customers that the list I possess is for my use and if they would like to trust their order to me I would gladly send it out if they pay my charges otherwise I wish them luck finding smeone online and give them a warning to make sure they are getting a local florist and not a broker because they will likely not be able to fix any problems that crop up and likely will not have any recourse...This may seem harsh but the fact of the matter is I pay for that list and need to be paid for the info in order for them to benefit...I struggle with this for many reasons, but I get very tired of giving away my knowledge to inconsiderate and undeserving would be customers....

 

[Bigted]

Two questions - Are you saying someone would get a different bouquet in your shop by going direct than they would get choosing the same bouquet on my site and me sending it to you?

Not here, but I know a lot of shops do.

 

[lori042499]

Charging a relay fee, service charge or processing fee is totally legit. Calling it a delivery fee and then withholding the money isn't.

The FTC called that 'witholding undisclosed fees' and stated it was a violation of consumer laws last year. Unfortunately, dOGs are so far under the radar, it would take a concerted grass roots effort from locals to see anything done about it.

Cathy, not sure how your website is set up, but with my TF site I wanted to have a separate delivery fee and service fee and was told I couldn't, my delivery fee and service are bunched together and then I separate and send the delivery fee onto the florist and keep my service fee...Until the web changes this is how I have to do it...as a matter of fact its been a while since I asked about this maybe it has changed, I'll have to check..

Many customers do not understand and many don't care...How many people buy an item online for best buy and pay shipping when they could pick it up at the store and get it for less...So many people buy things on ebay and pay more for the item because if inflated shipping than they would have locally...this goes on everywhere mostly because people aren't aware of what they are paying for and the end total is the only thing they focus on...

Bloomz is so right when he says they look at gross no matter how you slice it, dice it or list it, if they paid 70.00 dollars in the end in their mind it should be a 70.00 arrangemnet recieved...its not right but it is happening in the consumers mind and noone wants to bother to waste their breath on the semantics...just get the money and the order and worry about the few who may complain later...

 

[LJVF]

Would you call that a 'qualified' recommendation?

What about the rest of my post regarding line item fees? Do you believe it is or is not material to a consumer?

Why do you think FTD removed the "includes delivery" text and TF puts the fee under 'delivery'?

Currently when you add an item to the shopping cart at FTD.com it will say (before shipping/service & fees). This doesn't seem much different than any online e-commerce site, so I don't see much deception.

The question I pose is how many local florists actually separate delivery and service on their websites?