Web site instead of wire services?

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Infinite said:
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Please remember to make your point without groundless personal attacks or characterizations. We don't need this drama again.
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I have to chuckle at the irony...here we all work in a business which at its' core is supposedly based upon artistry and emotions, yet if someone (me, usually) starts discussing meta-stuff like integrity, long-term thinking and good-of-the-industry-not-just-good-for-me sentiments , I get slammed for making "personal attacks" and creating "drama" because I didn't "do the math" that shows if I join a wire and create 200 websites (10 in each of the 20 largest's markets) I could BE IN IT FOR THE MONEY!!!, as we all sagely nod at each other in agreement and chuckle at those who just aren't quite as cunning and bloodthirsty as we are.

Whatever. I went out of my way to make sure I allowed prestonway and all the other OGs/dOGS that lurk here all the latitude he and whoever else needs to make his or her bling. I'm sorry if my disdain and lack of respect for OTSs and OGs so offends the FC crowd, but I see little of the same respect afforded those of us who strongly believe that this industry would be much the better if all the middlemen were simply eliminated, the OTSs became total direct shippers, and we all filled orders for our valuable customers who would, over time, balk at flowers-in-a-box, at 100% of value.

To get back to the core of this thread, Twiggy asks if joining a wire service is a good idea. I plainly state my case why, as a new shop, this is a bad financial decision, and prove why. Senders will not use her new shop so she will NOT get the volume she needs to be profitable for at least 5 years. I talk freely of my shop with no hidden motives and give my hard-earned opinion free of bias.

But out come the hidden agenda people, big senders and heavy OTS/MLM hitters who by very definition have a totally different POV, one that keeps THEIR pockets lined. Funny, but almost all fail to mention that they have a vested financial interest in getting newbies to sign up, that always strikes me as odd. No links to their websites. They don't identify themselves as Big Boy senders, and do all they can to convince newbies that, well, if run this fictional number with that fictional COGS and its Tuesday before Mother's day, you will make an extra $65.45 a year...wow, can't pass that up!

Like any other MLM operation, they need fresh blood (capital) to keep the tidy little money maker going, otherwise, why in the world would the OTS be willing to sign up 5 (or more) shops in a 20,000 population area??? Like MLM, they depend upon the hopes and dreams of sucess of a naive entrepreneur and hard-sell the heck out of them. A true business "partner" would carefully do demographic studies and the like to make sure all of its affiliates in a area would have enough potential population to allow the franchise to make money. Any fair franchise that was truly looking out for the good of ALL of its members, not just those in the upper echelon, would not allow a partner that has served it in good standing for 40 years, as many wire members have, be competed against by some new owner that opened a shop 1 mile from them. As I've marveled before, what type of operation does THAT to its' long-standing members???

Any business and the individuals involved with it that does that, and has no quality controls to police its franchises and the products it delivers, is simply scamming its members and is just another form of MLM. And think, Twiggy, you are being "hired" to sell products, and you have to buy into the program? This is a sure sign that it is probably a scam. If the product is worth a darn, the company will make its money selling the product. No program that requires you to buy into the program is real, meaning that al;most all ARE scams.

If you have to buy into the service, forget it! It is not a real service. Build your web site, make it crawlable by the spiders, and give 100% value on every arrangement sold, and your shop will stand out like a jewel against a sea of sand...

TThus, today just about ALL of the multi-level marketing programs are scams. In today's internet economy, there is simply no need for multi-level marketing (or middleman floral order gathers) or the overpriced products that they sell -- meaning that the only thing they are selling are memberships in anticipation that future sales will be made in the future, which is the classic definition of a pyramid scheme

And if you want a personal attack, how about this...your momma wears combat boots.
 
12BucksFor2Dozon said:
To get back to the core of this thread, Twiggy asks if joining a wire service is a good idea. I plainly state my case why, as a new shop, this is a bad financial decision, and prove why. Senders will not use her new shop so she will NOT get the volume she needs to be profitable for at least 5 years. I talk freely of my shop with no hidden motives and give my hard-earned opinion free of bias.

But out come the hidden agenda people, big senders and heavy OTS/MLM hitters who by very definition have a totally different POV, one that keeps THEIR pockets lined. Funny, but almost all fail to mention that they have a vested financial interest in getting newbies to sign up, that always strikes me as odd. No links to their websites. They don't identify themselves as Big Boy senders, and do all they can to convince newbies that, well, if run this fictional number with that fictional COGS and its Tuesday before Mother's day, you will make an extra $65.45 a year...wow, can't pass that up!
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12:

I assume you are not a WS member.

With that said, How do you know Senders won't send to her? Most incoming order are from traditional mom & pop run flower shops, not .coms. There probably are exceptions.

Please define who the hidden agenda people are. Are you alluding to businesses like me or Preston? I have not heard any OG or .com manager enter this dialogue, so who are you refering to?

Additionally, the reason I ask that is your next couple sentences you refer to "fictional numbers ... with fictional .... COGS." Words that could be used to describe my previous posts and examples.

I have no agenda.

Just trying to help.

If you are refering to me, you are mistaken.

Joe
 
Griff said:
Preston is right. No wonder florists aren't interesting in the numbers.

Joe, you have the art of looking at numbers down cold. However, in your prime example you are showing that the florist with $200,000 in sales is already covering the overhead and by joining a WS, any additonal income does fall to the bottom line. I agree. That means that there are some florists out there that can possibly say that a WS can work for them. However, much of the other examples put forth by both you and Goldfish are what I call "feel good" accounting. If you juggle the numbers around enough, you'll always be able to feel good about the outcome. The problem is the numbers are not real for that specific flower shop. Yes, I understand you are jsut giving examples.
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Gold,

I have presented a rudimentary model that Twiggy can plug in potential numbers.

Let's review.....

GS - COGS = GP

GP -OE = NP/L

Now

GS + 73%WS incoming (filled at 100%) + 20% outgoing - COGS = different GP

GP - OE - additional WS expenses = different NP/L

That is all.

There were no "feel good" numbers in my analysis.

Joe
 
12Bucks - here goes my 2 cents....

It doesn't seem like we're reading the same thread since I don't recall anyone being a strong advocate for or against wire service participation.

The general consensus is that choosing to participate in a wire service should be based on an understanding of the impact to the bottom line. Several methods to assess that impact have been promulgated. Naturally, the emphasis has been on the filling side since new store aren't generally big senders.

As professional florists, we all should all be in it for the money - otherwise it's called a hobby. I don't see anyone advocating the abandonment of values nor anything illegal, immoral or unethical in pursuit of profits.

I personally filled incoming orders every day this week, mostly representing customers of florists which I've known for years. Yes, they were discounted sales - and those same shops have been filling our discounted sales for years, too.

AFAIK all the 'big senders' on this board fill orders, too. Doubt they have any vested interest in seeing more shops sign up as most already have a list of preferred florists in medium and large markets. Wanna bet they'd prefer fewer, experienced, financially solid affiliates over marginal, inexperienced operations?

I understand your anger, but believe it's misdirected. Part of the responsibility lies with the WS reps that painted those rosy scenarios and part lies with your own lack of industry-specific financial knowledge before launching a flower shop.

Don't you wish you'd read a thread like this before opening your store?

WS reps selling newbie owners 'bills of goods' is a time-tested-and-honored tradition and the source of many a pay check. Reps will tell you of signing up sequential new owners at the some location four years running. Many of the 'oldies but goodies' reps hate that churn, BTW.

IMO this has been a stand-out thread and I applaud all the guys and gals that have shared their basises (is that a word?) for analysis.

BTW, you're wrong. My mother wears pink bunny slippers.
 
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Griff said:
If you were starting a business in anything other than a flower shop, what could you do to generate marginal gain business that is being discussed.
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Start out small with the minimal possible overhead; keep the out-flow of cash minimal and go from there. That's what we've learned from our experience in starting a restaurant from scratch.

It's easier said than done. Most "new" florists these days, ours included, are actually purchasing the existing businesses. They usually come with a bloated overhead, especially the rent and property tax. Servicing the debt (monthly payment towards seller's financing) is a very significant part of the burden, too.

If these burdens can be cut, I think that's the first thing a new business owner should be doing. If you cannot (which is often the case), then the next thing s/he should be doing is to look at each revenue source, such as local orders, wire-ins, wire-outs, walk-in sales, etc, to see which one is making money and which one isn't.

Then try to reduce the ones that aren't making money and increase the ones that are more profitable. In most start-up florists, this most likely means reducing the reliance on wire-ins and making efforts to increase local orders.

A new owner needs to look for a new revenue source, too. It doesn't have to be related to flowers, as long as it's more profitable than the one it replaces.

If we keep doing this for a couple of years and are still alive, I believe there is a good chance that we won't be dead within 5 years, an average life-expectancy for new florists.
 
Feel good accounting

My definintion of "feel good accounting" is any time we take an accepted accounting formula and insert unrealistic numbers and get a result that makes us FEEL GOOD. Joe, will say again. Your formulas are not the problem. The numbers are what is in question. In computer terms, garbage in, garbage out.

For example, WE all know that $250 a month is NOT really the actual cost of belonging to a WS. There are alot of hidden costs. It is just an example number, ight? We also know that whatever that real cost or complete cost is, it shouldn't all be loaded against the revenue of only incoming orders, but yet our examples are doing just that. Advising any new florist who has no experience with a WS that "if you get 50 orders IN" will net you this much marginal gain is also very misleading. How would any new florist know how many orders they are going to GET IN?? How would any new florist know how many they are going to SEND OUT? Is it realistic to advise a new florist in a town <example> of 40,000 and with 2 florists already located there, that this new florist will even reach 20 orders OUT other than possibly holiday months <MD & Christmas> and for the other 10 months get maybe 8-13 orders per month. The facts are that most people within that town THAT DO SEND FLOWERS are already using the other 2 florists.

Goldfish gave an example of splitting a company in two sections and then divided some of the expenses to show that you can make either section look good or bad depending how you divide the numbers. That is also feel good accounting. In reality, when you real split the business, the costs should be split appropriately. If you have 2 designers, and one designer is assigned to each segment of the business, then the entire cost of each designer is expensed against their respective division. You can't flip flop the numbers depending on the work loads in the respective divisions for that month. To do so is also feel good accounting. As she said, "I can make this come out anyway I want to".

Marginal gain is a REAL thing. It does exist. However, if you look at the formula that Joe expressed, Revenue - variable expense = marginal gain, it is based on a business that has already paid for all the fixed monthly expenses. The idea is for a company that has already made or making the monthly bogey on a regular basis and without having to purchase additonal goods <flowers or supplies> or any added labor or any added delivery cost <gas> IS able to accept orders that will utilize left over goods and utilize excess labor. Even if the revenue from these orders are less than the company objective, they WILL add marginal gain for the company. However, tell me which one of you has NOT had to buy extra flowers to fill incoming wire orders or not had to make special runs for delivery or not had problems with the delivery or had to fabricate a special order to meet the requirement and then tell me that marginal gain is realitistic when dealing with incoming wire business!!
 
Starting NEW vs buying existing flower shop

There is a very big difference in the advise past along to a new florist as versus someone that has pruchased an existing business.

And existing business may have profit problems, but it is like looking at an incomplete puzzle laid out on the table. You can see some parts are missing and maybe some of the parts are put in the wrong part of the puzzle, but at least you get to somewhat visualize what the overall puzzle picture is all about. An existing business already has a customer base, equipment, employees and a reputation.

Starting from stratch is completely different. The biggest difference is LACK of a customer base. In an existing business, there is revenue coming in every month. it may not be enough to pay all the bills, but at lest their is INCOME. A new business has NONE. No income, no receivables, no reputation. Only alot of hopes and dreams. One thing that every NEW florists does know however is at the end of every month, the bills come rolling in. The landlord is not going to give you a discount on your rent just because you're new. Neither is the electric company or the water company or the flower wholesaler. You should learn very quickly that you need to generate as much FULL VALUE business as you can to pay the bills. WHY full value business? Because if every DISCOUNT you might give to your new customers to motivate them to buy from you means you have to sell more product, make more arrangements, make more deliveries, just to compensate for that discount. In other words, work harder to make the same amount of profit. Every month you don't make enough profit to pay all the bills, you have to take some of your money out of YOUR savings. You not only can't pay yourself, but you end up using your savings to pay everyone else. That can only last so long. Incoming wire orders have the same effect to your business.

So when a WS rep walks into your new shop and give you a "pitch" on joining their team, becasue it will help you get business and establish yourself in your community. listen closely. It doesn't matter about any FREE offer to join. Those offers for a short term. Any 20% gain you get for sending out is offset by losing 28% on incoming and you have no real control over either. Even if the dues are FREE for a set period of time, there are always hidden cost somewhere. TF for example has over $425 in annual subscription fees and selection guide costs that are not going to be FREE. Remember, as a new florist, the money to pay these bills is going to come out of your SAVINGS. This is also a varialble expense that will change from month to month. This is why I disagree with Bigted that said, you can joing a WS and then if it doesn't work out, quit. The question should be how much money are you willing to LOSE to find out if it works for you, because as a new florist, you will lose money.

The fact is that any new florist today can send orders out without a wire service. There are alternative selection guides if you feel that you MUST have one and various directories to find florists. Charging a sending fee makes it easier to send orders out without getting commission and for most, will actually get a better return than what is offered by the WS. Take the money that you saved from not joining a WS a use it towards a website of your own or local advertising and work toward cultivating a long term, full value customer base which incoming wire business ISN'T. Getting out of the main stream WS directories also protects you from the OGs feeding your local customers back to you as discounted business. Let them add to the destruction of your local florist competitors who are filling for them.

I know this because I went through this. I went through my savings like Grant went through Richmond. If you have a choice between joining a WS for $250 a month or buying a 1,000 scented candles for $750 for sale within your shop, take a very good look at the candles before the WS. The WS is a variable expense that will go on for as long as you let it, where as the candles are an inventory expense and can provide marginal gain.
 
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twiggy said:
So what does everyone think about starting out with NO WIRE SERVICES!?? I'll be opening my flower shop in the fall of next year. I'm in a small town with population of less than 10,000. the ladies i work for now have both ftd and teleflora. by the way they are the only show in town besides the grocery's floral dept. Other florists i've talked to have nothing good to say about wire services, but feel they need them. this past md i noticed many more orders called direct w/ credit card.. and am wondering wouldn't my money be better spent on a nice web site??
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Twiggy,

I think you should primarily promote your website. If you are looking to try a wire service, you might consider using a different service than your competitors. I am a charter member of FloralSource International. The fees are low, $59.95 monthy, they have a rebate program and they will provide a free website for you. I have my own website, but I can tell you that the site that FloralSource provides gets lots of hits. Here's a link to FloralSource:
http://floralsourceinc.org/aboutus.php
 
Let's deal in real terms

OK, Dianne, where does Twiggy get the $59.95 from for the first months dues? It obviously has to be out of her own pocket, right? Afterall, her business is just opening and she hasn't reached any point where revenue exceeds expenses. So how does Twiggy get her investment back from FSI? Is this going to be through sending OUT orders by 20% commission and rebates. Where are these out going orders going to come from?? How many does she need to just break even. Or is she going to get her return on her investment from incoming. Remember, we all know where much of the current order traffic is coming from on this system and FSI doesn't pay any better on incoming than does the other WS. So how does Twiggy get her money back?
 
a few thoughts

I rarely weigh in on these WS debates, but I really look at this debate as more in the overall financial decision making debate. so here goes.


I'm not going to quote any specifics as I don't have time but here goes some points:

1) if i'm right, every example of numbers, used 30% COGS, although doable, i would venture to say that a new florist would be more in line with 33-37%, IF we are being honest.

2) same with Net Profit of 10%, all great and good if no debt to service, which again if being honest, how many florists start WITHOUT some sort of loan to repay. ie. net profit 10%, but cash flow GONE with debt servicing.
and I believe that for the first 4 years I operated at a loss. great for me when it came to not having to pay Uncle Sam, but...again, let's talk what I believe to be the hardest concept.... CASH FLOW! Who cares that last year I showed a Net Profit of 15%, yahoo for me. not, i had debt service that surpassed that 15%. (not really my numbers just example)

3) others said the same, but NO NEW florist is going to get 50 incoming orders a month. period. in fact i would venture to say that in a town of 100k or less, they would do well to get 20 a month even after 5 years.

4) i see no good reason to use the "have to have a WS to send" theory here, a new florist is going to have time on their hands, so taking the extra time, which is actually very little time, to find a florist via the internet and sending them the order direct is a viable option for the first year or so. and honestly, how many of your outgoing orders actually use a guide? are not most of our orders taken over the phone, "hey parie, just send something nice for me, you know what i want, keep it under $75". so see no need for that excuse to get a WS.

5) most used numbers for annual sales of around $200k, i started my business from scratch in 1992, it took me about 8 years to reach that mark.
just being honest. (for comparison, i'm in a town of about 190K, with at least 20 traditional B&M florists, and of course the groceries and big box as well)

okay, nuf said.
parie
 
My vote: web site not wire service.

Your town is very small and is only going to get so many orders incoming and out going. [You are working for your competition now, how many are they getting/month. You can figure that you may get a portion of those orders but not immediately and at what cost.]

Need a selection guide. get the john Henry books.

Not to rain on your parade but I think a town of 10,000 is pretty small to support two profitable florists unless you like to work for hobby change. good luck
 
Since there have been a few more comments regarding my examples, let me be Crystal Clear.

Plug in any COGS as a percent of sales you want, any OE as a percent of sales you want, any Net Profit as a percent of sales you want.

Also, plug in any number for Gross Sales, Operating Expenses, and any number both in and outgoing Wire Service Sales you want.

I really can not understand how my posts are being so misunderstood.

Use that formula for many scenarios.

The numbers I used were examples, not Twiggy's projected sales forecast.

Joe
 
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Joe Mioux said:
I really can not understand how my posts are being so misunderstood.

Use that formula for many scenarios.

The numbers I used were examples, not Twiggy's projected sales forecast.

Joe
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Joe, I did understand you, sorry if it looked as if I didn't. But that being said, I think I was probably addressing a question Twiggy didn't necessarily ask, OOPS!!
i was looking at the whole picture, and how hard it is to sustain a new flowers shop in this climate.
so sorry joe!
parie
 
Wow...this book (thread) has gotten alot of play....great topic...

Twiggy...one thing I would suggest, is to get, and learn Excel. Wether you end up with a POS system when you open or not, wether you have a wire service or not...no matter what...get Excel...and learn it...(still learning here).

You can take everything you do, from now until the day you open and catagorize the expenses...break them down...analyize them (even ficticious ones, before you spend the money), then take your "projected Gross" and plug that in, then all the other future expenses like Pay Roll, vehicle expense, lights, water and so on...you'll get a pretty good idea as to where you stand.

Even though my business is 59 years old (3rd generation owner here) I utalize a number of programs to analyize what and where the money is coming from and going to. MAS provides my daily sales numbers that are plugged in, I enter all my invoices that are due in the future, plus knowns like utilities, car payments etc, I have a page for the credit cards that has the balance of each card, payment due date, and minimum amount due, another for the monthly bills like Cable that are always the same...

At any given minute, I can look in this one place and know exactly how much money I have both in the bank, how much is owed to me, how much I owe and how much I have that I can expect to play with tomorrow...

Many of the fine members of the FlowerChat Community have offered numerous tips on what you should do, and how to go about it, read them all, learn from them all and then figure out what works for you, because I'll tell you (and I'm sure everyone here will agree) that EVERY shop is different, EVERY shop operates under different circumstances and EVERY shop has THEIR own way of doing things...

Find your own way too...
 
Griff said:
OK, Dianne, where does Twiggy get the $59.95 from for the first months dues? It obviously has to be out of her own pocket, right? Afterall, her business is just opening and she hasn't reached any point where revenue exceeds expenses. So how does Twiggy get her investment back from FSI? Is this going to be through sending OUT orders by 20% commission and rebates. Where are these out going orders going to come from?? How many does she need to just break even. Or is she going to get her return on her investment from incoming. Remember, we all know where much of the current order traffic is coming from on this system and FSI doesn't pay any better on incoming than does the other WS. So how does Twiggy get her money back?
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Hi Griff,
Why the hostility? I'm not out to battle here. I only offered her a suggestion for an alternative wire service that she could look into. FloralSource has no hidden fees, no containers to buy, and great customer service. If FloralSource doesn't have a member in her town, and she is looking to fill incoming orders, it may be beneficial to her. She can also negotiate with FS or any other wire service. I pay less than $59.95 monthly, and that is because they wanted me to join their service and were willing to negotiate on dues. Ultimately, Twiggy will have to made the decision regarding joining any wire service. She'll have to weigh out the pros and cons. FS was only a suggestion, which is what Twiggy was asking for in this thread. I stated that Twiggy should focus primarily on building a top notch web site.
 
Don't want to get off topic here

NavyBrat said:
Twiggy,

I think you should primarily promote your website. If you are looking to try a wire service, you might consider using a different service than your competitors. I am a charter member of FloralSource International. The fees are low, $59.95 monthy, they have a rebate program and they will provide a free website for you. I have my own website, but I can tell you that the site that FloralSource provides gets lots of hits. Here's a link to FloralSource:
http://floralsourceinc.org/aboutus.php
Click to expand...

Diane,
Can I IM you? I have couple of questions about FloralSource.

Thanks,
Bob
 
Joe, I really don't think any one is questioning the formulas you have stated. As is always the case, it is how people use those formulas or how the numbers that are derived that seems to be what all the comments are about. But rather tha talking further about the formulas, lets see if we can give an application that may have more meaning.

Picture for a minute that you are a relative new flower shop. You've been in business for 2 1/2 to 3 years now and still haven't joined a WS yet. Sales are Ok in you local community, but you are always looking for MORE BUSINESS. The only limitation is you have limited funds to do much of anything.

One morning a WS rep comes into your shop and wants to talk about joining their WS. He first asks how you are currently sending out your orders and how many you send. The response is that you call them out and you are averaging about 20 orders a month, the average value is $45 including delivery and you also charge a sending fee of $6 because you have to send out the order at full value <no discount>. The salesman tells you that if you join his service, you can continue to get that $120 a month <$6 x 20 orders> plus another $180 in commission and another $60 in rebate. The salesman tells the florist the monthly cost for the WS is $250 a month. The florist, using Joe's formula, figures $120 SF + $180 comm + $60 rebate - $250 WS fee = $110. Wait a minute, thinks the florist. I'm already making $120 without the WS. The smart saleman responds, well that not all. My WS currently has the other 2 florists in this town as members and I can tell you that records show that these 2 florists get a combined total of 60 orders in a month and the average order is $45. By you joining, that number would get split 3 ways and you could expect at least an average of 15 a month or an additional boost in sales of $675 a month or possibly over $8,000 a year. This is a very honest rep and he makes sure the the florist understands all of the costs involved with incoming orders. The $675 in sales - $196.25 comm - est $150 COG for those orders. The florist then does the final math. Outgoing is +$120 SF + $180 comm. + $60 rebate + $675 incoming sales - $196.25 comm - $150 COG - $250 WS fee = $438.75. The WS rep is quick to point out that even after the monthly fee, you are making more money than before. Luckily the florist wants to take some time to look again at the numbers and says he will call the rep in a day or two.

The same day, a salesman for website production company call this florist and gives his pitch. This salesman is only interested in helping the florist to get more full value business from customers outside his community. The salesman offers a "standard timplate website" to get started for $500 and monthly hosting for $35 a month which includes service from their staff to changes pictures etc. Yes, the florist will own the domain name and have complete control over the site. Salesman askes if they currently get any orders now from people out of the area that have found him listed in some internet yellow pages and florist confirms maybe 2 a month. The salesman figures that a website should help that number and experience suggests maybe an additonal 8-10 orders a month. Florist tells the salesman he doesn't have $500 and tells him he was about sign up with a WS for only $250 a month. Salesman responds that his company takes $250 up front and $250 in 30 days when site is up and running so it really isn't any different than the WS. Florist wants to do the math and says he will call the salesman later. Based on this converstion, the florist realizes he can continue to call out his average 20 orders a month for $120 SF and if the website would give him an addditonal 8 orders a month, he again used Joe's formula. The $120 SF on outgoing + <8 orders incoming x $45 average> = $360 totaling $480. Florist realized that $500 is a one time charge and decides to amortize over 2 years. Fixed espense becomes $20.83 plus $35 for hosting. With expenses added, you have $480 - $55.83 - est COG for those 8 orders $72 = $352.17 per month.

The WS scerario gives you $438.75 aand the website gives you $352.17.

I have tried to include the appropriate numbers for both scenarios. If you are this florist and based on the numbers, which proposal do you think is the best direction for you to go? Is there any considerations other than just numbers this florist should take into account?? Trust me. There are some traps in here. It is your business and your money. Mistakes are costly. Numbers can mislead. Your comments please.
 
virginia_Bob said:
Diane,
Can I IM you? I have couple of questions about FloralSource.

Thanks,
Bob
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Hi Bob,

Feel free to contact me anytime. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. My toll fee number is 800-448-2216, you can PM or IM anytime. Looking forward to speaking with you. I will be in the flower shop after 10AM tomorrow. I have an early morning appointment before getting to the shop.
 
Griff said:
Joe, I really don't think any one is questioning the formulas you have stated. As is always the case, it is how people use those formulas or how the numbers that are derived that seems to be what all the comments are about. But rather tha talking further about the formulas, lets see if we can give an application that may have more meaning.

.
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Did you read post #93?

You are doing a good job at finding all the costs. Remember, there are some additional labor costs with both of scenarios as well. Website updates, WS reconcilliation etc.

Griff, can you find me the break-even point in your scenario. What are your total costs excluding the variable of in and out commissions and clearing house fees.
 
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