Web site instead of wire services?

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RC in Dayton and Cincinnati said:
Show me a florist who solicits incoming wire orders to fill excess capacity,
...and I’ll show you a florist on a downhill slide.


I agree with Griff on this topic!

By the way, what is the florist supposed to do during Christmas, Valentine’s Day, and Mother’s Day when there is no excess capacity, and the wire orders are flowing in heavy? …reject?



RC in Cincinnati and Dayton

...and if you had no wire service, and still couldn't handle the locals because you had no excess capacity, would you reject them too?

Or would you increase your capacity (labour & flowers) to the the point you could adequately service your local clientele, while still making a profit?

Why wouldn't you do the same for filling incoming as you would for locals, if there is a profit to be made?

Are all florists that fill incoming on a downhill slide Randy, or maybe, just maybe, does each shop need to crunch the numbers for themselves?

...just a thought...
 
Griff said:
I'm not interested in how many orders I generate per day, but rather how much profit is generated. I can't pay my bills on sales. I can only pay them from profit on sales. I can't do that on discounted business. !


Griff, you pay bills (Fixed costs) from Gross Profit, not Net Profit. So, if you cover 100 pct of your Variable Cost and the Remaining Gross Profit contributes to reducing your per unit cost (each sale) of Fixed Costs, your business will make a larger Net Profit.

Just so there is no confusion, I, too, am interested in maximizing Net Profit.

Joe
 
prestonway said:


Are all florists that fill incoming on a downhill slide Randy, or maybe, just maybe, does each shop need to crunch the numbers for themselves?

...just a thought...


Most older established flower shops don't join WS for the prime purpose of "receiving orders". They want to SEND. They are willing to "play the game" as long as they can send more than they receive. Hense they are more then willing to fill as long as the numbers are in their favor.

If any florist, even an older established one, takes the route to handle "excess capacity" with discounted business, they have made some major miscalculations. Joining any WS to accomplish this is making the problem worst because you have added addtional fixed and variable expenses <notably WS costs> to your company to solve the original problem which was not enough work for the employees <also a fixed expense>.

If any florist finds themselves in a postion where the customers are streaming in the front door and you don't have enough flowers or labor to do all the work, congratulate them! They've got to be doing something right. It is also an easier problem to solve then one of excess capacity with discounted business. A quick trip from the wholesaler and even temps from manpower will temporarily fix the problem.

At Christmas time, when you have to make a choice whether you fill WS orders or the local customers, which do you choice??
 
prestonway said:
...and if you had no wire service, and still couldn't handle the locals because you had no excess capacity, would you reject them too?

Or would you increase your capacity (labour & flowers) to the the point you could adequately service your local clientele, while still making a profit?

Why wouldn't you do the same for filling incoming as you would for locals, if there is a profit to be made?

Are all florists that fill incoming on a downhill slide Randy, or maybe, just maybe, does each shop need to crunch the numbers for themselves?

...just a thought...


There is no profit to be made on filling incoming wire orders, unless you cheat. Not even creative accounting will help. The only reason a florist should ever fill them is out of courtesy.


You seem to argue on both sides of the accounting issue, Preston.
On one hand you talk about fixed costs and excess capacity, then on the other hand you talk about increasing capacity and fixed costs to fill highly discounted business.

The question that you, Joe and all florists should ask themselves is if you can make a profit filling incoming wire orders from strangers, discounted at 35-40%, then why don't you offer your "true to life" real customers the same discount?



Please don't send me incoming wire orders! Send them to my competition; they're dying to get them.


RC in Cincinnati and Dayton
 
BOSS's Quote of the day!!

RC in Dayton and Cincinnati said:
The only reason a florist should ever fill them is out of courtesy.

Wow, finally the real reason we fill them!
 
Griff said:
Most older established flower shops don't join WS for the prime purpose of "receiving orders". They want to SEND. They are willing to "play the game" as long as they can send more than they receive. Hense they are more then willing to fill as long as the numbers are in their favor.

That's our primary reason for being FTD for as long as we have...and why we joined.

Griff said:
If any florist, even an older established one, takes the route to handle "excess capacity" with discounted business, they have made some major miscalculations. Joining any WS to accomplish this is making the problem worst because you have added addtional fixed and variable expenses <notably WS costs> to your company to solve the original problem which was not enough work for the employees <also a fixed expense>.
---
At Christmas time, when you have to make a choice whether you fill WS orders or the local customers, which do you choice??

Agree there Griff... And, I'll add that most shops who do this do not take into account operating cost for actually doing those orders. As you say, 'fixed costs', most have no REAL idea what they are. However, with the employees as a 'fixed cost' - not sure there. In the past, (thank the good Lord not the past 2 years), but we have cut designer's hours in the summer when the work slowed. A real bad thing to do for everyone. But, back then, we had no choice. Hence, the cost of employees is a variable cost IMHO.

Re: C-mas time....no brainer. But, it took us one too many years to figure that out.

- H.
 
RC in Dayton and Cincinnati said:
There is no profit to be made on filling incoming wire orders, unless you cheat. Not even creative accounting will help. The only reason a florist should ever fill them is out of courtesy.

Courtesy aside, I would argue this point by saying the ONLY way to make a profit on incoming wire orders is to have the volume needed to buy product in bulk, hard goods via drop ships, and a stream-lined delivery model (or use of a delivery pool with cheap package in costs). Without these, no way. And, it's getting harder and harder to get that volume...

We are an example of this. We MADE money (back in the EARLY years) with having all those wire services - namely 1-800. However, the volume dropped, designs became more complicated (with regards to less roundy-moundy desings ergo more talent needed = higher designer cost) and with some simple math, it was shown to us that belonging to all is not the way. AFS was swallowed up by TEL, but was on the chopping block with us. Then, FSI, then Bloomlink (who still thinks we are members....).

BUT ALL SHOPS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL! Doo the math...if you get a good bunch of $ leftover, and YOU'RE SATISFIED WITH IT, then keep fillin'.

- H.
 
Any person who owns a business, needs to be in control

One of the things that hopefully will become clear to the florists that are reading this thread is what some people can do doesn't mean that you can all do it too. In some of the formula calculations that were done earlier, we were able to arrive at different conclusions based on inserting different numbers. For example, we could calculate that a florist would have to send out x number of orders to break even on commission and rebates vs cost of the WS. We also had the opportunity to insert different numbers to show marginal gain that can be obtained. Marginal profit gain is a real thing, but as the numbers showed, it can be very elusive. The single most difficult aspect of incoming orders is DELIVERY. You can deduct $5 or $7 for delivery, but the real cost is not determined until delivery it is completed. Florists in delivery pools have an advantage, Their delivery rate is fixed. For the regular florist outside a delivery pool or without a delivery service, the mere fact that your vehicle is stopped at a train crossing during delivery is costing you money and eating away at the profit.

Some florists will also question nuts like myself who are willing to send direct and NOT use a WS. We are not rebels! We have just learned the secret. We have figured out a way to send a quantity of orders every month and eliminate the fixed and variable cost of doing it through a WS. My profit is greater for my volume of outgoing business if I do it this way. Yes, I figured that out by the numbers.

Not to harp on excess labor, but if any florist even thinks about incoming orders as a way help pay for this problem, adding an additonal 30 incoming WS orders to your current work load translates to roughly an added order per day which inturn translates to 15 or 20 minutes of created work for a designer per day. And what is that designer going to do for the other 40-45 of the hour or the next 7 hours of the day? This is what they mean by volume. You need alot of it! Joining a 2nd WS for more incoming doesn't help either. The additonal cost of that WS now goes completely against any incoming. Why? Because, the dues for the first WS is applied to outgoing and as you didn't join the second for outgoing and neither WS created any more outgoing for you, all additonal expense of the second WS goes toward any incoming orders. In other words, you do more work and make even less!

One last thing. DISCOUNTING in the floral industry. In the real world, discounting is done between the customer and the business person and is always to the benefit of both. Generally, we refer to it as a quantity discount. Four tires for the price of three, buy one shirt and get the second at half price. The merchant or business person is trying to sell more product and is willing to give a price incentive directly to the consumer. In the floral world, discounting was originally created to benefit the WS not the consumer!. It is used to create an incentive for someone to send an order. When every WS created the same program <20-80>, rebates were needed to "sweeten the pot". Neither the discount or rebate has any benefit to the consumer. I have a personal dislike for discounting, but also realize that if done properly it can benefit your business. If both the provider of the discount and the consumer both benefit, then it is an effect tool. I mentioned offing 4 tires for the price of 3. Anyone can figure out that is a 25% discount. The tire salesman, however, is not just discounting 1,2 or 3 tires at 25%. You have to buy 4 tires for the discount to apply. He is trying to increase his volume of business. I'm sure that some florists were chuckling when I raised the idea of discounting weddings. I'm not referring to all weddings. If Summer is your traditonal slow time, why would you not create an incentive for additonal Summer business. If you average wedding is $750, why not offer a discount on weddings larger - $1,000 or $1,500. If you have the month of June is filled, why not offer a discount for weddings in July and August? It doesn't have to be 25%. YOU control the discount and YOU control what you want to achieve. Most florists charge a premium labor rate for weddings. If you charge 35% labor and offer a 20% discount, what is the resulting labor factor? We already talked about the savings in delivery costs. The point of this is YOU should control the discount and the results and not have the discount control you!

To me, it is simple. Whatever decisions I make for my company, I wish to be in as much in contol of the outcome as possible. If there was a delivery service available to me and I had to chose between a part time driver and a delivery service, I not only look at the costs, but also the how much control do I lose with one vs the other. If I want to invest in a website, I don't want anyone between me and the consumer. If I decide to offer discounts, I am not interested in anyone other than the consumer being able to get a benefit directly from it.
 
Griff said:
Some florists will also question nuts like myself who are willing to send direct and NOT use a WS. We are not rebels! We have just learned the secret. We have figured out a way to send a quantity of orders every month and eliminate the fixed and variable cost of doing it through a WS. My profit is greater for my volume of outgoing business if I do it this way. Yes, I figured that out by the numbers.

Just out of curiosity, do you accept direct orders from other florists?

Do you pay a commission to the sending florist and if you do allow sending florists to earn a commission, do you fill those orders at full value?

On your outgoing orders, do you receive a commission for sending the order?

Joe
 
Me don't think so

RC in Dayton and Cincinnati said:
You seem to argue on both sides of the accounting issue, Preston.
On one hand you talk about fixed costs and excess capacity, then on the other hand you talk about increasing capacity and fixed costs to fill highly discounted business.
Not arguing both sides at all. In the summer, there may be excess capacity, and during peak floral holidays I may need to increase capacity.

...but be careful of your accounting terms, Randy.

Increasing short-term capacity by hiring part-time help & bringing in extra flowers are VARIABLE COSTS, not FIXED COSTS.

...and as long as my ADDITONAL REVENUES exceed my ADDITIONAL VARIABLE COSTS, I am generating ADDITIONAL CONTRIBUTION MARGIN to help cover my FIXED COSTS (once I've paid my wire service dues, that money is gone. It's now a fixed cost)

I was just thinking...I'm almost sounding like Art Conforti (heaven forbid). Why are we always saying NO this isn't making me enough money?

...as long as my decision is generating some positive Contribution Margin, maybe I should be saying YES more often!

Rather me making a little than always giving those wire-ins to the competition. Is this the same type of business decision that BOSS was considering with 1-800?

Hmmmmm....gotta crunch some more numbers...
 
Joe Mioux said:
Just out of curiosity, do you accept direct orders from other florists?

Do you pay a commission to the sending florist and if you do allow sending florists to earn a commission, do you fill those orders at full value?

On your outgoing orders, do you receive a commission for sending the order?

Joe

No, Joe, on my outgoing orders I do not get nor ask for a commission. I charge my customers a sending fee of $8. As my outgoing orders average between $45 - $50, that translates to roughly a 16%-17% commission. When I left the WS, I wasn't getting that return on my outgoing even with rebates.

I also will accept any order direct from other florists. However, NO commission is given. If I'm sending out 100% <we have to use the term UNDISCOUNTED when Bloomzie is around>, then I see no reason to extend commission to anyone else. It sure keeps the OGs away. Get one, may be two florist direct orders a month. Mostly from florists here in Illinois that are doing the same thing. Didn't used to get any.
 
Bump...for the new kids on the block...

Very good thread, debating the discounting of orders.
 
Would be nice to hear from others about this thread that either took the advice of continuing to fill or gave it up. Hows the website? Independent or still WS templete?

Whats your business like one year later?

Is it growing with incoming? Is the orders that are being filled more profitable then last year? Less order gathers or more gatherers?

I really haven't seen to many OG sending our way. Perhaps our Minimums are to high? The only one I see still is blooms today.

I have noticed our Outgoing is up this year. That is weird! I did set up a nationwide gallery on the websitefeatureing some of TF products. I think I have seen 2 calls from it but their complaints was to much money. Usually its been some of our older customers calling for sending out.
 
Another twist to the WS discounted orders, I have found talking to florists that I send out to recently. The incoming WS orders are drying up, even the holidays are sparse.

If this is the way it's going, then Joe's "excess capacity" accounting is falling by the way side for alot of florists. Especially for the florists that do not even know it's happening, and that is most of them that I have talked to. Only the strong in the towns they are in will survive. Too much labor, too much overhead, will be the next wave of florists closings. If these florists turning WS wampum to help keep their doors open, I feel are having a very tough time today.

"Stay small or go Big"
 
Another twist to the WS discounted orders, I have found talking to florists that I send out to recently. The incoming WS orders are drying up, even the holidays are sparse.

If this is the way it's going, then Joe's "excess capacity" accounting is falling by the way side for alot of florists. Especially for the florists that do not even know it's happening, and that is most of them that I have talked to. Only the strong in the towns they are in will survive. Too much labor, too much overhead, will be the next wave of florists closings. If these florists turning WS wampum to help keep their doors open, I feel are having a very tough time today.

"Stay small or go Big"

Jerry,

"Joe's excess capacity"?

It appears this has become personal with you.

Believe me, your comments or anyone else's that differ from mine or not treated as personal by me. Everything I wrote last year is valid. You gloating about changes in this industry is petty.


Your annectodal assumptions are accurate with my business. My incoming WS business is down $10K for the year vs last year. Since 2004 it is off $16,000.

Web business continues its upward growth.

Direct orders are also up compared to my most similar year (this is a commodity trading term used to establish future trends (( it is also a very good management tool that most businesses know nothing of )) ), that being 2005.

With that said, with less incoming business compared to last year and 05, my Net Profit is also less for this year.

There are other reasons, but fewer incomings have hurt the bottom line.

Since last year, I have dumped FTD. Being a member of FTD was not profitable.

I also renegotiated with TF member fees. My current member fees are very favorable, fair and allows me to earn a net profit.

Joe
 
well Eric, I'll have my own independent website a templet, with Media99. Working on photographing my own designs, plants and what ever else i can think of to put on the site. I'm opening in Sept (4th) and hope to have the site up about a week before. what it boiled down to for me was..

1 i'm in a small town, I just can't justify the cost of even one ws for my few orders in or out.
2 as i say to my future customers that ask "are you going to be FTD" no, i can still take care of your out of town orders, but they (ftd/teleflora) are just going in a different direction than i am. so even if i COULD afford it.. i just don't want their failing reputation to be associated with me.
3 like Griff said.. i like to be in CONTROL of my own business.
so that's my update
 
Hey twiggy. Don't wait to the last minute with the website. Get it going now. Three months is the magic number.

Don'f Forget about the blog!!! Get that puppy rolling and start talking about starting your business. The pros and the cons the ideas that are going to make your shop different from anywhere else in the US.

Good luck!!!
 
Joe, I did not mean to come across as this being personal with me. I've been around too long for that to happen.

I have sent out quite a few orders these days, and this thread absolutely goes along with every thing other florists are telling me. Not enough business, to much expense. Will they do something before it's to late?

Do they need extra help? Do they like to have their days off but still be a shop owner? Do they golf to much? Do they need a tax right off? I don't know their situations, all I know is what they tell me about their biz.

Most florists sell plants, flowers, and some gifts. The word "discount" should not even be in their vocabulary, or in their business. JMHO.
 
Twiggy; to keep costs to a minimum you might condider getting an old WS directory (or go on-line to find a florist) and simply call florists direct with your own credit card. Many will still give you some kind of trade discount. Even if they don't you have looked after your customer. It's a quick fix while you decide if you should join a WS.
 
oh geez, i see this is an old thread.
Never mind. I'll just say, wire services=bad/money waster/fakers that make florists think they are helping them.
 
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