How can small shops learn/use SEO effectively without paying an arm and a leg?

[Dorothy]

In a relatively small town, it's not difficult at all to rank high in Google/Yahoo. It's more or less automatic. If I can do it, me without any training/learning/whatsoever in SEO/html/etc, then I'm sure anyone can do it.

I found it much more difficult to rank high in the search results for our neighboring towns.

I created a whole bunch of pages, each corresponding to each neighboring town we deliver to. None of these pages consistently shows up in page 1 of Google search.

I think that's where the difference between amateurs and pros is most apparent. I've got to admire Wesley Berry here. His page shows up everywhere in Google search for our neighboring towns. I don't know how he does it.

Here's my prob:

1. Do a search in google with keywords: summerland flowers
2. Our TF site www.summerlandflowers.ca comes up at the top, yes, but I'm trying to get our own site ranking higher, which is www.summerlandflowersandgifts.com (not e-commerce YET).

Our own site summerlandflowersandgifts.com USED TO rank really high but in the last couple weeks, it's way, way, way down the list (except when doing a map search). Our town is small - only two flowershops, us and Martin's Flowers (theirs is a TF site).

I also own www.summerlandflowers.com which I haven't used for over a year (I had tried the FTD website using this one but dropped it - the domain was only redirected so FTD DOES NOT have any rights to it. I'm seriously considering advising the new boss of the flowershop to switch the domain to summerlandflowers.com I'm thinking maybe that one will rank higher. Comments?

Also, getting business info changed, adding URL to the Yahoo directory has proven impossible for me so far. The Canadian directory does not allow you to just go in and change the info, like google does, without paying (as far as I can tell). If anyone has any insight into this Yahoo problem, please let me know.

Yesterday, I added links in the footer of our main site, so we'll see if that helps. Oh, and I also added a blog.

 

[goldfish]

Here's my prob:

1. Do a search in google with keywords: summerland flowers
2. Our TF site www.summerlandflowers.ca comes up at the top, yes, but I'm trying to get our own site ranking higher, which is www.summerlandflowersandgifts.com (not e-commerce YET).

I'm no expert, but here's what I've observed.

If your site has more pages indexed than your competitors, chances are better that your site will rank higher. Not always, but generally true.

- index total

our site (#1): Google 219, Yahoo 1197
our closest competitor's site (#2): Google 188, Yahoo 439

summerlandflowers.ca: Google 167, Yahoo 360
summerlandflowersandgifts.com: Google 8, Yahoo 4

Your TF site has 20-90 times more info than your own site as far as Google / Yahoo are concerned.

Also, Yahoo is ignoring some of your pages. I know why. The page titles of these ignored pages are identical to the title of your index page: Summerland flowers. You need to make the title of each page unique.

I also own www.summerlandflowers.com which I haven't used for over a year (I had tried the FTD website using this one but dropped it - the domain was only redirected so FTD DOES NOT have any rights to it. I'm seriously considering advising the new boss of the flowershop to switch the domain to summerlandflowers.com I'm thinking maybe that one will rank higher. Comments?

If it has been idle for a year, it won't rank high at least initially.

 

[Dorothy]

our site (#1):

summerlandflowers.ca: Google 167, Yahoo 360
summerlandflowersandgifts.com: Google 8, Yahoo 4.

How did you get that info there? I'd like to be able to check that myself regularly, so I can see if I'm making progress.

Thank you so much for your advice. I had the individual pages named according to what they are in nav but I may have misunderstood some advice I got a while ago and changed that. The duplication thing makes sense now.

Here I go...thanks again!

 

[theRKF]

Although they don't weigh as much in the search results as keywords, the number of links to your site should be as high as possible.

Blogs with a link to your website also seem to raise the search results.

Links are king - although you never want to focus too heavily on one area, if you have a new site links are very, very important. Without links, the on page content won't matter too much. (Of course, if you have links to a crappy site you won't rank as well AND customers will be turned off.)

I'm seriously considering advising the new boss of the flowershop to switch the domain to summerlandflowers.com I'm thinking maybe that one will rank higher. Comments?

That's a bad idea. You need to pick one domain, work on it consistently over time. Domain authority is a big part of ranking as well. That'show Wikipedia ranks with empty pages, and why the Quickbooks forum posts rank well. If you keep changing your domain name you're starting over again and again.

I'm no expert, but here's what I've observed.

If your site has more pages indexed than your competitors, chances are better that your site will rank higher. Not always, but generally true.

The number of pages indexed is a good barometer for the strength of your domain AND the crawlability of your site. It doesn't mean that you will automatically rank better, but it can be an indicator of problems and of competitive strength.

How did you get that info there? I'd like to be able to check that myself regularly, so I can see if I'm making progress.

That info is freely available.The SEO Toolbar from tools.seobook.com is a good source of data, you just have to know what to do with the data.

Ryan

 

[theRKF]

Interesting and inspiring read. Yea, to all you DIY-ers!

"Frind knew little about search-engine optimization or online advertising, but he was a quick study. From March to November 2003, his site expanded from 40 members to 10,000. Frind used his home computer as a Web server -- an unusual but cost-effective choice -- and spent his time trying to game Google with the tricks he picked up on the forums…."

The article also says, "Competitive data, once available to only the largest companies, can be had with only a few clicks on http://compete.com/ and http://www.quantcast.com/"

FULL STORY: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/and-the-money-comes-rolling-in.html

Warning: 5 pages long. Hope you like to read!

A few take-aways:

• Being a tech school grad with a degree in programming doesn't make you a DIYer
• Frind is a great success - but of the millions of sites launched in the past 6 years he's one of the very, very few
• Competitive tools like Compete.com are very inaccurate for smaller sites and niches - but useful for major players in major verticals
• Frind survived numerous failed start-ups before Plenty of Fish
• Frind succeeded by:
  • Doing hard things - learning a new programming language and applying it in a competitive space (again - a programmer learning a new language isn't a DIYer)
  • Creating good content
  • Creating a good user experience
  • Building loyalty and brand by delivering on what his site promises
  • Arbitrage - attracting free traffic and selling ad space to competitors. His product wasn't the dating site, it was the targeted customers to offer to the advertisers
• Opportunity Cost is very low when you're unemployed or unemployable (6 jobs in 2 years)
• Frind can afford a lousy web design and user experience because he is not after the conversion, he is after the pageview
• Frind is an above-average developer: "Most websites as busy as Frind's use hundreds of servers. Frind has just eight. He is not eager to explain how he manages this, but he says that it mostly comes from writing efficient code, a necessity when you are the only code writer and are extremely averse to spending money on additional hardware and features." (again: not a DIY job)
• While he disdains Google as a cult, he has claimed their business model: build an effective product, make it free, sell ads

I also had to laugh when the author referred to Jeremy Schoemaker as "A search-engine-optimization blogger" (Shoemoney is known for calling SEO "bull@@@@" on more than one occasion. He blogs about internet marketing, primarily in the affiliate arena.)

Ryan

 

[goldfish]

I'd simply say, computer skills need talent (your DNA), just like any other skills.

I have no design skill. Do I have to learn? I can, but it would be extremely time-consuming and frustrating to me; worse, the results would never be half as good as a design made by a beginner with talent.

Why are comupter skills any different? I think those successful DIY'ers mentioned in this thread may not have had experiences in computers, but they had talents.

I'd venture to guess that 90% of florist owners don't have this talent in computer skills. They have other kinds of talents.

In that case, it would be most cost effective for them to focus more on their own talents (could be designing, marketing, socializing, etc). Use the extra money raised by that effort to hire some computer geek.

Something like a few hundreds bucks a month should hire a decent web developer + SEO.

 

[Dorothy]

A few take-aways:

• Being a tech school grad with a degree in programming doesn't make you a DIYer
• Frind is a great success - but of the millions of sites launched in the past 6 years he's one of the very, very few
• Competitive tools like Compete.com are very inaccurate for smaller sites and niches - but useful for major players in major verticals
• Frind survived numerous failed start-ups before Plenty of Fish
• Frind succeeded by:
  • Doing hard things - learning a new programming language and applying it in a competitive space (again - a programmer learning a new language isn't a DIYer)
  • Creating good content
  • Creating a good user experience
  • Building loyalty and brand by delivering on what his site promises
  • Arbitrage - attracting free traffic and selling ad space to competitors. His product wasn't the dating site, it was the targeted customers to offer to the advertisers
• Opportunity Cost is very low when you're unemployed or unemployable (6 jobs in 2 years)
• Frind can afford a lousy web design and user experience because he is not after the conversion, he is after the pageview
• Frind is an above-average developer: "Most websites as busy as Frind's use hundreds of servers. Frind has just eight. He is not eager to explain how he manages this, but he says that it mostly comes from writing efficient code, a necessity when you are the only code writer and are extremely averse to spending money on additional hardware and features." (again: not a DIY job)
• While he disdains Google as a cult, he has claimed their business model: build an effective product, make it free, sell ads

I also had to laugh when the author referred to Jeremy Schoemaker as "A search-engine-optimization blogger" (Shoemoney is known for calling SEO "bull@@@@" on more than one occasion. He blogs about internet marketing, primarily in the affiliate arena.)

Ryan

I know, from the article, that Frind had some education behind him before he shot up to success - I thought that was pretty obvious. But I think it's worthy to note that he was self-motivated as well, which is what every DIY-er has to do to learn and grow and find some measure of success. It's the spirit of it all that I was intrigued by. Obviously certified professionals are there, and for good purpose and reason, and I respect all you, including Ryan, and at the same time I also encourage people to utilize their own brain power and learn and grow too.

I know lots of people who didn't go to college or university, including my own son (30, this summer) who is making 6 figures because he was "there" before there were any notable courses available to learn what he knows. One of his employees also wrote a code that is the backbone of the company they work for and he didn't go past high school graduation. So, again, I am a BIG believer in DIY - and I don't think by having this view that you're doomed to always deal with the crap on the floor. You don't always have to have initials behind your name to actually know and/or learn the game, whether you're a floral designer or a web developer/SEO expert or an entrepreneur.

P.S. Ryan, you may have had my son in your icq list way back when. wiinter (a.k.a. Jareb) Ya never know....

 

[Dorothy]

Also, I'd like to also note:

Definition
Forum
noun
1. a public meeting or assembly for open discussion
2. a public facility to meet for open discussion

 

[theRKF]

Discussion: an exchange of views on some topic

I'm sorry if my answers were perceived as anything but a discussion (exchanging of views). You asked the questions that started this thread.

Sidenote: As it's becoming a recurring theme on FC of late, I'm thinking of making our official tagline: "If you're seeking affirmation instead of insight, please look elsewhere."

But I digress ... Dorothy, I have no letters behind my name that weren't earned in the past couple of years. I, too, am a high-school only (early college drop-out) guy with a lot of years of experience. I'm of the era that was doing SEO before there were courses or conferences. Until recent years, everyone was DIY - but the ones who consistently did well made it their full-time DIY, not a side project.

CHR is a florist who has been featured in SEO publications for her work. JB has built a successful mini-OG-empire. But for everyone one of them there are hundreds of thousands of failed or failing small businesses who fell into the trap of DIY-something. I did DIY accounting until my first audit DIY electrical can get you killed.

My point throughout this thread is that you have to weigh the benefits and the costs, the potential gain with potential loss. If, like Robin, you're doing it because you enjoy it, and you can make a case that it's cost effective for your business - that's a solid choice. If you're doing it because you don't want to pay $$ to someone who has paid for their education with time and money - because you don't think the expertise is worth the cost - then it's costly mistake.

Only you know the answer to that question.

If you're serious about doing it yourself, I highly recommend that you start making plans now to attend the next SBMU conference (Houston, in the spring, I think) to better equip yourself. Another option would be SEOmoz training in Seattle. SMX comes that way as well, but it's the worst fit of the three for you IMHO.

Ryan

 

[goldfish]

My point throughout this thread is that you have to weigh the benefits and the costs, the potential gain with potential loss. If, like Robin, you're doing it because you enjoy it, and you can make a case that it's cost effective for your business - that's a solid choice. If you're doing it because you don't want to pay $$ to someone who has paid for their education with time and money - because you don't think the expertise is worth the cost - then it's costly mistake.

Most DIY'ers are doing DIY, simply because they cannot afford professional fees up front.

You cannot persuade these DIY crowds by explaining in terms of costs of DIY versus benefit of professional help. That's a moot point because the latter option doesn't exist to begin with. (By the way, exact same arguments can be made for most DIY brides, another topic.)

It's like trying to explain a great benefit of purchasing treasury bonds ($10,000 minimum) to paycheck-to-paycheck people.

Have you considered contingency pricing like what lawyers do? For example, if your SEO works and our revenue increases as the result, I pay you a certain percentage of that increase. No increase, no pay.

 

[bloomz]

Have you considered contingency pricing like what lawyers do? For example, if your SEO works and our revenue increases as the result, I pay you a certain percentage of that increase. No increase, no pay.

Great idea!!!

 

[theRKF]

Have you considered contingency pricing like what lawyers do? For example, if your SEO works and our revenue increases as the result, I pay you a certain percentage of that increase. No increase, no pay.

There are some SEOs who operate in this way, and we've certainly discussed it from time to time with clients. There are some practical and logistical issues involved as well:

• Factors outside the SEO's control
  • Quality of the content of the site
  • Image / product quality & selection
  • Reputation and service level of the client
  • Order-taking ability of the phone staff
  • PPC budget (if any)
  • Previous analytics data to build an effective baseline
• Additional costs of accurate attribution
  • Phone tracking

Obviously, we can give a site the full-court press and handle most of those issues, but that quickly escalates from a low-budget project into the thousands of dollars. We've done sites like that - typically around $75k / yr plus $60k+ for PPC spend.

In our low-budget projects we handle a lot of the technical issues and give guidance to the client for their own content creation work. We work with the client to educate them (teaching the man to fish) while handling areas that require technical expertise and giving advice on the latest best practices.

I'm not in this thread trying to make a client out of Dorothy - I'm just trying to put her questions into a framework where she can go from abstract statements like "arm and a leg" to concrete business decisions involving investments and opportunity costs. Just giving some perspective

If we were to consider a contingency plan it would have to be a % of every order (likely on a sliding scale) generated online or by phone through organic search (and PPC, if we were running the PPC).

To set an appropriate contingency percentage we would have to look to competitive markets. Florist affiliate programs routinely pay 20% commission for affiliate sales. As such, we'd probably have to start at 20% commission, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for us to drive traffic to the client instead of through an affiliate site (**I realize there are other factors here, including ethical ones about non-local orders, etc, etc ... this is just from a business analysis). We're open to discussions on the issue.

Ryan

 

[goldfish]

If we were to consider a contingency plan it would have to be a % of every order (likely on a sliding scale) generated online or by phone through organic search (and PPC, if we were running the PPC).

We WS members are already paying 30-40% to every single WS incoming orders. Unlike wire-ins, any additional sales created by you or any other SEO company would be our customers.

So I, for one, would be happy to give you 40 cents of every dollar for the first 10% revenue increase, lower rates after that. 40 cents for SEO is a LOT better inventment than 40 cents to wire-ins. So this payment schedule should work for most florists who are already paying 30-40% to WS companies.

For a typical small florist with $300K revenue a year, 10% increase means $30K, so in this example, you will be getting at least $12K a year.

On you side, all you have to consider is whether your spending $1000 worth of your time a month ($12K a year) will or will not lead to the 10% sales increase of this small florist in a span of one year.

If you belive there's a good chance, I think a deal can be made with any small florists who want to increase the sales (who doesn't?) but don't have cash to pay.

Remember Ryan, most of us are paying 30-40 cents for every dollar in incoming orders.

 

[theRKF]

We WS members are already paying 30-40% to every single WS incoming orders. Unlike wire-ins, any additional sales created by you or any other SEO company would be our customers.

So I, for one, would be happy to give you 40 cents of every dollar for the first 10% revenue increase, lower rates after that. 40 cents for SEO is a LOT better inventment than 40 cents to wire-ins. So this payment schedule should work for most florists who are already paying 30-40% to WS companies.

For a typical small florist with $300K revenue a year, 10% increase means $30K, so in this example, you will be getting at least $12K a year.

On you side, all you have to consider is whether your spending $1000 worth of your time a month ($12K a year) will or will not lead to the 10% sales increase of this small florist in a span of one year.

If you belive there's a good chance, I think a deal can be made with any small florists who want to increase the sales (who doesn't?) but don't have cash to pay.

Remember Ryan, most of us are paying 30-40 cents for every dollar in incoming orders.

You don't need to remind me about the 30-40% to the WS -> if 30 years in the biz didn't cement that in my mind, reading FC daily for 6 years has

And how do most florists feel about the wire services? Over time, there grows a resentment towards those who take a commission. Not everyone, and not every time, but we need to be wary of our reputation and how we are perceived in this industry. That's why we've stayed away from any per-order fees on the F20 sites.

Something else I forgot to mention in the previous post is the extra legal cost involved in developing an air-tight contract. Many, many incentive-based SEOs have been burned by clients through poorly written contracts & subsequent legal battles. The most famous recently was a firm involved in promoting "The Secret" who had an agreement for a share of revenue from the books, movie, etc. He got hosed out of millions when the project succeeded beyond expectations.

I'm not adverse to trying this - we would just need the right partner and firm parameters in place.

Ryan

 

[Dorothy]

I'm not in this thread trying to make a client out of Dorothy - I'm just trying to put her questions into a framework where she can go from abstract statements like "arm and a leg" to concrete business decisions involving investments and opportunity costs. Just giving some perspective
Ryan

Ryan, I appreciate any and all advice you give all over the place in FC. And I don't feel that you're trying to solicit our business at all. On that note tho, I no longer own the flower shop I'm representing here. I am only trying to help the new owner - and do stuff with the website that I didn't have time for when I was owner. The new owner is not computer illiterate, she does use POS and knows how to email but she has no idea about web design/development/SEO & web marketing, etc. I am helping her out, without any kind of compensation because I care still about her business being a success. Plus, at the moment I know she can't afford to hire someone to do SEO stuff or even the little bit of design, etc., I'm doing for her.

In a nutshell, I do have time to learn as much as I can, I have a personal interest in it and whatever I learn can be used to enhance our own business which is only a year old (Music & Arts School of Summerland).

So, please, please know that I am VERY appreciative of any good advice given here. And please forgive my ignorance from time to time

 

[strippinrose]

I'm going to change my keywords right now! Thanks Boss.

I use Godaddy and bought Traffic Blazer (under $50) which takes you through some of the steps like submitting to search engines, etc. I don't know if it's working, but I'm getting more phone calls from people who say they saw my website, so something is working.

I'll be watching this thread with interest!

I dont even no how to change my key words....am I toldally doomed are will I have to hire a inhouse puter expert to get the job done...im at my wits end!!!!

 

[goldfish]

You don't need to remind me about the 30-40% to the WS -> if 30 years in the biz didn't cement that in my mind, reading FC daily for 6 years has

Someone on this board was saying he belongs to a WS to "move flowers." By that, I think he means he will stay with WS even if he makes no profit, as long as he doesn't lose money.

So, he is willing to give out ~65 cents of every sales dollar to someone else.

Ryan, you have a very generous customer base in our industry. I just wanted to remind you of _that_.

P.S. I'm not _that_ generous. 30-40% maybe....

And how do most florists feel about the wire services? Over time, there grows a resentment towards those who take a commission. Not everyone, and not every time, but we need to be wary of our reputation and how we are perceived in this industry. That's why we've stayed away from any per-order fees on the F20 sites.

There will always be some florists who complain. That's inevitable.

But as long as your income and your customers' growth go hand-in-hand, I think most customers will be happy. That's why contingency pricing is attractive.

WS? Their income grows at the expense of ours, so it's hard not to dislike. I'm still an FTD member though, not because of love by the way.

Something else I forgot to mention in the previous post is the extra legal cost involved in developing an air-tight contract.

That's an extremely important point, Ryan. And it will cost you a fortune. But I think it's worth it.

If you can help small florists like us to grow our business (and grow your business as the result), you are helping our industry to rid "floral order brokers". That's the main thing.

 

[theRKF]

Here I go with another post that going to sound like shilling for my own stuff (apologies!):

We really went at the Florist 2.0 project with the florist in mind. It's cheaper for a florist to get an F20 site that is designed to rank well than it is to try and fix a broken or limited site. For $250 (template) or $2k (custom) you get a site that has done just about all that we would advise any florist to do. Plus, you get the upgrades and enhancements we develop along the way, an already active user-base to interact with, and most importantly the technical work is done. You have the freedom, ability and guidance to produce and publish quality content on your site. Most shops using our platform make back their investment in 1-3 months on a custom site.

This is the first step toward how I can help the small and large florists grow the industry.

Ryan

 

[mikec]

I would certainly agree with Ryan and I don't think that he is shilling here. And I don't know if Ryan has the time or inclination, but since there seems to be so many people that have so many questions about SEO, Blogs, Linking, RSS feeds, keywords and on and on, maybe there is something Strider could develop to help those that want/need to help themselves. I'm including myself in the growing number of florists who don't quite understand the "BIG PICTURE" because of all the factors associated with maintaining, enhancing and UNDERSTANDING how all these separate entities work and why any florist with any website needs to know the bigger picture.

I know that I would be willing to pay for these kinds of lessons. I try to read background information on many of these issues, but I digress... Mike

 

[Chezbloom]

Learn to fish

"If you can help small florists like us to grow our business (and grow your business as the result), you are helping our industry to rid "floral order brokers". That's the main thing"

I agree with Goldfish but the per order incentive seems like its taking away some of the florists power. I think they need to learn SEO right along with everyone else because things change so much.