Question re: florist education programs

[Rhonda]

As a shop owner, I paid for one employees certification program only to have that employee leave soon after. My investment was lost. Now I will not pay for certification classes. I will pay if they want to attend a show. I'll pay their hotel room if not feasible to drive in one day, I pay their registration, their hands on workshops, their meals. That accounts for a great more than one or two days pay (part time employees). Do I insist they go? Not to the point of "pushing", but I do insist that they are great learning tools to reinforce their basics and move up in the design world. Right now it's just me and a delivery girl..... so problem solved

 

[OB1]

As an employee, most of the people I worked for would not pay for any of the costs of me attending any continuing education classes of any kind.
The reasons varied form worries that the staff may feel entitled to greater wages due to increased knowledge and ability, to the staff interacting with other owners who may "steal them away", to one who feared that the staff may "become better" than them.
I remember how that made me feel...like I was somehow "owned" by my employer, like the actors used to be owned by MGM, or whatever.
I continued to attend as many times as possible, because I love learning new stuff, I got better at what I did, I became a more valued employee and... I enjoyed it!
When I became an employer, I decided that the only fair thing to do was to encourage further education, at my cost...much the way Apple or RIM does it.
Staff are expected to attend new classes to upgrade their skills, but they are not penalized for it...I pay their fees and their wages.
It doesn't always work out ideally...I've had a few people who have left after having become better florists, however the vast majority of them have moved onto different types of work, and have not stayed in the industry.
Three have opened their own businesses, two of them went down in flames within a year, the third is doing OK, and thst kind of makes me proud in a weird way, because without my guidance, she couldn't have done it, but I still kind of feel hurt she left....
Like Rhonda, I don't think I will pay for any certification exams, but the courses, yeah sure. In the long run, it benefits my company.
JP

 

[Victoria]

In a perfect world Shannon it wouldn't cost anything extra to cross the border to go to Oklahoma. However, for me to fly there I must have additional health insurance (out of country), I have to have a passport (additional cost), exchange on the dollar (not bad at this time), hotel, meals, transportation etc. It is not a small economic undertaking.

However, I can drive to Toronto. My health care is covered, I don't need additional travel insurance, I can pack a lunch (my choice to do that) and I can drive home, or stay with friends when the class is done.

And I must admit that if I was going to spend the money, I would prefer to fly to Europe to experience the lessons they offer.

V

 

[theRKF]

Joanne has summed up the prevailing attitudes quite well. Like many business decisions this often motivated by fear, especially increased wages or departure.

Some options include:
-having a schedule of pay increases based on earned qualifications and experience (if the employee pays for the training)
- having employees reimburse the employer if they leave within a certain time period

In business most fears can be addressed by a considered plan.

I'm personally amazed at the low cost of education in the floral biz. SEO conferences can be close to $2k per person with various certifications from $2-$5k (most expire after a year). Forums are hundreds per month to subscribe. If I want to hire someone who is certified I'll have to pay them more. If I hire a lower cost newbie I have to train them, pay for certification and understand they are going to be less efficient.

 

[theRKF]

Joanne has summed up the prevailing attitudes quite well. Like many business decisions this often motivated by fear, especially increased wages or departure.

Some options include:
-having a schedule of pay increases based on earned qualifications and experience (if the employee pays for the training)
- having employees reimburse the employer if they leave within a certain time period

In business most fears can be addressed by a considered plan.

I'm personally amazed at the low cost of education in the floral biz. SEO conferences can be close to $2k per person with various certifications from $2-$5k (most expire after a year). Forums are hundreds per month to subscribe. If I want to hire someone who is certified I'll have to pay them more. If I hire a lower cost newbie I have to train them, pay for certification and understand they are going to be less efficient.

 

[OB1]

WOW, no wonder SEO is expensive! I guess that is the difference between an industry that is growing and developing quickly, as opposed to one that is basically stagnant.
Makes me wonder what would come of our industry, if we all wanted to grow and learn and prosper.
JP

 

[theRKF]

I think if more florists were looking to further their education we wouldn't be losing Shannon to become a shrink.

Ask your Chiropractor how much they have to spend on CE credits

 

[OB1]

You'd fly to Germany but not to Oklahoma? huh, interesting.

The funniest (strange not haha) is hardly anybody from Oklahoma attends those classes.

Look, go there or don't. Belong to TF or don't.
Everyone has the same opportunities (meaning you can go or don't) and we all have from time to time financial struggles.


Shannon,

Yep, believe it ot not, It is cheaper to fly to Europe than it is to fly to Oklahoma.
And I can get a direct flight to Frankfurt, or to Amsterdam.

The airfare system in Canada is strange, I don't dispute that. Plus, when I go to AIFD symposium, I am usually able to see lots of American designers, fewer European designers, and because my shop is modeled after a Dutch style flowershp ... (I'm 1/2 Dutch), there are many reasons for me to go there. Plus in Europe, I feel more at home with the culture than I do in the USA.
Regarding air fares, I guess it is very different here...I'm not sure why, but I often see tickets that are advertized for $299, but when you add on the air transfer fee, the airport tax, the fuel surcharge, the baggage fee, etc, etc, the ticket price can easily be three times the advertised price. When Andrew and I went to Newfoundland, ( about the same distance to Oklahoma) the price of the ticket was advertised as 99$ But by the time we paid for the actual fare, it was over 300.$

Regarding AIFD being held in major US cities, you bet there have been arguments. It may not make the presses, but trust me, many of us have been pointing out the inequities of this for years. It's bad enough for someone like me, but if you hail from a small town in Northern Manitoba, or worse, from some unheard of place in Scotland, or virtually anywhere in New Zealand or Australia, there is no way that the way the system is set up is fair to members. And the new CUE point system is definately skewed against any member who does not hail from the US. These are things that, as members of the "elite" design society, we have been trying to rectify. If more members were willing to be the "pain in the ass" types, instead of the "polite Canadians" perhaps changes would be forthcoming. Or perhaps AIFD would rather keep their organization an insolated American institution that does not welcome the ideas from their European cousins. I do not know the answer to that dilema. But I do continue to voice my concerns, along with many other international members.

Regarding the cost of symposium education, I must disagree there. To attend all of the shows, it costs around 500$ US.That does sound like alot, but considering every meal, every moment of your time is spent at some sort of learning opportunity, I think that the cost is more than reasonable. You are bombarded with learning opportunities from 8 AM to midnight, for each day you are there, so the fee, divided by the number of hours you atend is actually quite reasonable, compared to other shows that last, at best 3 hours.
I'm not in favour of only holding symposii in major US cities, but I cannot fault the financial value of the experience.
Oh, and just like the TF classes, you do not have to be a member of AIFD to attend.

As I said before, when it comes to TF, I just think that if you are going to tout yourself as a North American organization, and collect fees from members across North America, it only is fair to offer the same benefits to Canada as you do to the US. After all, we pay the same dues too. I'm not suggesting that I do not value being a member of TF...I am one of those who does find it to be a mutually positive experience in many ways. But when it comes to the equitable availability of educational opportunities, I feel that the scales definitely fall to the US members, which I do not feel is fair, or just.
JP
JP

 

[jaloweaifd]

Although I appreciate the point, the contractual obligation formed by requiring an employee to reimburse the employer for education expenses if they leave within a certain time period, is terrifying for me in a "right to work" state. Our labor laws stipulate that any employee has the right to leave a job for any reason, with or without notice of any kind provided there was no contract in force at the time. Further any employer can release an employee from their position with our without notice for a variety of and including "unspecified" reasons. Given that any form of contractual obligation opens my business up to a whole host of legal issues, I prefer to pay for my designs meals, entries and wages. Normally we also provide a company vehicle if possible for many of our "in state" educational opportunities. This arrangement is ALWAYS going to be cheaper than a lawyer and a lawsuit, even if the employee quits.

In retrospect, of all the employees I have had quit at my family business, only one has gone on to another shop in our immediate service area. This is from 30 years of shop experience. But it is different in more populous areas. I had a co worker in New Orleans who had worked for practically everyone at one point. So I fully understand the concern and frustration.

I know this doesn't help answer the education question, but:

Owners: No matter what, protect the business you have worked so hard to create and sustain. Always have a lawyer review any contract with any party that you enter into; be it with an employee, a business or a bride; at least in it's general format. Make sure it's legal and won't come back to bite you.

Employees: Your talents and services ARE the products that your business sells on a daily basis. Make sure you see your education as an asset that is yours alone. Whether you have a regional or state certification like NCCF or OMF or a national cert/accred like CFD or AIFD or CAFA, it is your asset and a testimony that you value education and that you will bring new techniques and new opportunities to your business.

No matter what side of the coin you're on: (and I have been on both numerous times) respect each other, be clear in your expectations regaurdless of who pays the bill and be willing to learn and share with each other.

--james

James L. Lowe, AIFD, CFD

 

[sandytf]

The cost of education is often correlated to the earning potential IMO.

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

The cost of education is often correlated to the earning potential IMO.

That's just the thing-

It's become soooo obvious to me that EVEN if I became AIFD, I will make no more money than what I do now.

Even sadder- I REALLY wanted to move to So Cali, San Diego County in paticular. Almost every person who was a working designer I spoke to said most designers earn about $9- $12 an hour there. I cannot see how anyone could have a decent life working for that. I don't make that little now and haven't in over 5 years.

 

[concord]

"It's become soooo obvious to me that EVEN if I became AIFD, I will make no more money than what I do now. "

Shannon, I think you're right. Unless maybe by being AIFD you could be one of the ones that travels and does educational shows. Maybe they make a lot of money. That could be right up your alley. I work my arse off for peanuts as the owner and I'd love to be able to pay myself, and my employees better, but the ups and downs of this business, especially now, seem to dictate the bad pay scale. Still, there are some bigger shops that make good money I'm told .

 

[lori042499]

The only way to make more money in this business is to work for a busy shop and have great talent...When I am AIFD, I might be able to garner a job at Winston's or exotic making 20-25 dollars an hour, but they will want my soul and first born too...that is if I ever sell my shop and work for someone again.

 

[herndonflorist]

I agree, some shows and seminars on the east coast please!

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

The only way to make more money in this business is to work for a busy shop and have great talent...When I am AIFD, I might be able to garner a job at Winston's or exotic making 20-25 dollars an hour, but they will want my soul and first born too...that is if I ever sell my shop and work for someone again.

At one time I worked for the biggest florist in ABQ (10 years ago) and I was only being paid $9 an hour. I was an exceptional employee as well as a good designer back then too. I don't think the "big" shops pay anywhere as much as we think they do.

And as far as being a traveling design show designer I have been told over and over by different designers that actually do it that they don't get paid no where near what we all think they do.

And it's also come to my attention that believe it or not some shops don't or won't hire AIFD designers because #1 They can't truly afford what they think the designer wants to be paid and #2 a lot of shops associate AIFD with prima donnas.

I seriously considered creating a business where hubby and I travel around and help shops re-vamp their look their Brand and all things that apply. But seriously who could afford that? And how many shops would pay for such a service even if they could afford it. Some shops/people don't want to hear the truth or assesments even when they ask for it.

It's like with design competitons, I can pick out the top 3 every single time if the designs are judged on elements and principles. Then I can pick out the top 3 that would be "peoples choice"
I just have that gift.
Anyway- In competion you should see how pissed some people get by the written critiques that the judges give. Some people take it so personally. I used to as well, I admit. But applying the critiques to my design style has done nothing but made me a better designer.

The point is- a business where you tell people "This would be better if you did it this way" would be hard for people to hear. And then having to pay for it would be hard for most to do as well. I really thought about it too, REALLY thought about it. I just don't think people would pay for advisement like that. They want it, they just don't want to pay.

The other thing that I know I would be met with is tons of resistment. A lot of "That won't sell here." or "people wont pay that here."
ba-lo-ney.
And I have proved it time and time again.
Lets take prom at Flowers by Martha Lee for example.
For the past 4 years since Bettina owned the shop she told me they did no more than a handful of corsages and bouts priced at no more than $17 each.
This year we did well over 100 (I can't remember exactly how many) and the average cost was $30 each.
That's a helluva difference if you ask me.

Then there's the issue of mismanaging money. You can increase your sales all day everyday, but if
you don't know how to manage the money- you're screwed.

Anyway, I'm rambling...
As much as I wish I could stay in the biz and make the kind of money I want to make, I equally want to go to school and become a psychologist. I thought of becoming a lawyer too, but I like the mind better than the law. And New Mexico is one of 2 states where psychologists (with the proper certificate) can prescribe certian medications. Depending on the degree I get, I can do very well. I plan on getting a Phd.

 

[Sprout]

Back to Nicole's idea about video/web programs...I've got to say, its' not for me. I've tried watching J and Hitomi on Accent Decor. While the subject matter might interest me, I just want them to hurry up and get to the point.

I'd rather read something well written with clear illustrations. I'm sure I'm the only one, but I find 10 minute videos on flower arranging to be tedious. Give me the meat - I don't need to be entertained or spoon-fed a concept.

As for getting better attendance at design shows - well, I'm not in a wire service. While I know I can pay to go to a TF program, I never hear about them. And I have a friend on our local board who always means to call me and let me know about them, but rarely does. Not blaming her, just saying she's busy and not set up to reach non-members in methodical way.

Perhaps TF needs to include non-wire service shops in their outreach? Also, what about a message board for car pooling?

Mid week events are tough, if you have to drive more than 45 - 60 minutes each way. But if it's going to be on a Sunday, it needs to be one outstanding program to give up family time.

 

[theflowersmith]

Actually, we've found that not even all TF shops get notified. Our unit submits info for snail mail flyers and Dove blasts, but have been made aware that some do not get them. A few years ago I started my own email data base and send two to three invitations/reminders to florists in and around Western PA whether they're TF or not.

May I suggest that you contact your Unit President and ask to be notified. The rosters and evaluation forms TF provides for events have a space for email addresses also. Someone on the board can easily set up an email list.

 

[lori042499]

Actually, we've found that not even all TF shops get notified. Our unit submits info for snail mail flyers and Dove blasts, but have been made aware that some do not get them. A few years ago I started my own email data base and send two to three invitations/reminders to florists in and around Western PA whether they're TF or not.

May I suggest that you contact your Unit President and ask to be notified. The rosters and evaluation forms TF provides for events have a space for email addresses also. Someone on the board can easily set up an email list.

This is very true...We had a board member that wasn't getting his slimcast message...TF also needs to get more on the ball with getting the stuff we need to market to us(board members) earlier and provide area emails now that they collect them so we can blast the shops, too...Some wholesalers are just as bad as shops when it comes to marketing, They think that the program responsibility ends at hosting it, but they have just as much at stake when you figure in how much they do and could sell after the program if they sent word out before the program that they were having a program and what kind of sale they will be having might get more people there..We suggest this but none really ever do it, I know I never get and email or fax or anything mentioned on their facebook..

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

our unit president makes flyers and asks the local wholesale houses to include them with all deliveries for about 3 weeks before the event-
That is how I usually find out about the event even before we get the card in the mail from TF.

Maybe that could work for you guys where you are..

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

Back to Nicole's idea about video/web programs...I've got to say, its' not for me. I've tried watching J and Hitomi on Accent Decor. While the subject matter might interest me, I just want them to hurry up and get to the point.

I'd rather read something well written with clear illustrations. I'm sure I'm the only one, but I find 10 minute videos on flower arranging to be tedious. Give me the meat - I don't need to be entertained or spoon-fed a concept.

As for getting better attendance at design shows - well, I'm not in a wire service. While I know I can pay to go to a TF program, I never hear about them. And I have a friend on our local board who always means to call me and let me know about them, but rarely does. Not blaming her, just saying she's busy and not set up to reach non-members in methodical way.

Perhaps TF needs to include non-wire service shops in their outreach? Also, what about a message board for car pooling?

Mid week events are tough, if you have to drive more than 45 - 60 minutes each way. But if it's going to be on a Sunday, it needs to be one outstanding program to give up family time.

Why not just let the tape buffer and then fast forward to what you want to see?