I agree, no one reads the fine print, takes too long & who really cares! Deceptive advertising for sure!
SAF and their stand on Order Gathering
- Thread starter Kristine
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I agree, no one reads the fine print, takes too long & who really cares! Deceptive advertising for sure!
There's a big difference between fair trade items that benefit disadvantaged people in foreign countries, versus sob stories from local retail merchants who complain their own choices aren't making them enough money.
The consumers may want to know that your roses aren't causing cancer to the farmers, but they don't care that you're giving up 30%+ on the incoming order.
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
It seems to me that the best thing we can do is just remove ourselves from the ws picture. I'm not 100% convinced on what SAF is tryi g to accomplish but I can tell you that until I see clear intentions from them I won't be able to continue my membership with them.
Besides do we have anyone here from SAF anymore?
Besides do we have anyone here from SAF anymore?
anytimeflowers
Linda
Hi all. This is Amanda from SAF's Floral Management.
Peter just sent an e-mail to Ryan, to clarify that his intent in the Viewpoint was to encourage florists to own their turf, to aggressively gather orders BEFORE a competitor of any sort got to them and to the use the Internet honestly to do so. He was not encouraging any kind of deceptive practice of positioning your business as a local one in areas where it is not. Clearly, the term "order gatherer" is a lightening rod (given that we're on p. 11 of these posts) and I truly hope that the term doesn't overshadow the real discussion all florists and SAF should be having about staying competitive. We'll be publishing letters to the editor in our September issue that address the Viewpoint with a variety of opinions.
As the managing editor of the magazine, I am constantly looking for ways to help you do your business better and thanks to smart florists, many of which I see on here, I've been able to share the ways they do just that. When I come into work, that's basically my (very abbreviated version) mission: find good ideas, share them (in EBrief, Sales Wakeup and Floral Management and of course, on Facebook and Twitter.
We've written extensively about buy-local efforts, both at the national level with The 3/50 Project (and how florists can join the movement) and at the local level, such as a recent feature story in the magazine about how Lafayette Florist spearheaded a buy-local campaign in Lafayette, Colo.
I hope this has answered some of your questions. I know there are many, many more and hope you continue to ask them of SAF.
Peter just sent an e-mail to Ryan, to clarify that his intent in the Viewpoint was to encourage florists to own their turf, to aggressively gather orders BEFORE a competitor of any sort got to them and to the use the Internet honestly to do so. He was not encouraging any kind of deceptive practice of positioning your business as a local one in areas where it is not. Clearly, the term "order gatherer" is a lightening rod (given that we're on p. 11 of these posts) and I truly hope that the term doesn't overshadow the real discussion all florists and SAF should be having about staying competitive. We'll be publishing letters to the editor in our September issue that address the Viewpoint with a variety of opinions.
As the managing editor of the magazine, I am constantly looking for ways to help you do your business better and thanks to smart florists, many of which I see on here, I've been able to share the ways they do just that. When I come into work, that's basically my (very abbreviated version) mission: find good ideas, share them (in EBrief, Sales Wakeup and Floral Management and of course, on Facebook and Twitter.
We've written extensively about buy-local efforts, both at the national level with The 3/50 Project (and how florists can join the movement) and at the local level, such as a recent feature story in the magazine about how Lafayette Florist spearheaded a buy-local campaign in Lafayette, Colo.
I hope this has answered some of your questions. I know there are many, many more and hope you continue to ask them of SAF.
The reason SAF is partnered with the WS and OG may be simple when you consider:
1. That is the way they think the industry is going.
2. That is why they are promoting B & M shops should become OG.
3. They are merely moving with what they see is a trend from the way flower sales are originating.
4. More and more retail flower business is being generated and promoted by OG such as ProFlowers, 1800 flowers and the WS.
5. The SAF reviews the sales statistics and are making their conclusions.
6. Their prerogatives have changed. They may not be thinking the B & M florists are the future, except with a few exceptional florists.
They may actually think:
1. The florist business with online orders will eventually narrow down to having orders filled locally by service businesses that aren't what we think of as florists.
2. These will businesses that have minimum wage type employees following bouquet recipes, and visual picture guidelines to produce the bouquet to fill orders.
3. These businesses will be loose knit operations where they work from apartments, homes and very low overhead workrooms.
4. We are already seeing some of this in our area.
The wholesalers aren't helping either:
1. There are wholesalers now in our area that will sell to anyone regardless.
2. Consumer buyers are standing in line with our people at pick up counters at wholesalers.
3. Our pickup people are waiting their turn behind consumers in the queue at additional cost to us.
4. There is some respect for our time, but when the wholesaler is busy it's wait your turn.
Wholesalers may also be the future choice for OG type order fillers:
1. The wholesalers are already buying for significantly less than we are
2. They have coolers and most also have delivery trucks
3. All they would need to do is start assembling bouquets from OG receipes and delivering them.
Sales are critical to business:
1. Large numbers of sales are originating from OG.
2. Don't expect the OG to lay down, if they can't get orders filled by us.
3. The OG are making too much money, they will do everything they can to perpetuate their business.
4. I suspect they are already working on strategies to go on with their business as usual by other methods to get orders filled.
5. The OG will just develop workarounds when the B & M fill florists refuse their orders.
6. Natually, with all the incentives from the WS they will embrace that distribution path as long as it is working for them.
A very old business axiom:
If you have confirmed sales, you find a way to get them fulfilled... no excuses
This axiom applies to all businesses, and it's dead on correct.
1. That is the way they think the industry is going.
2. That is why they are promoting B & M shops should become OG.
3. They are merely moving with what they see is a trend from the way flower sales are originating.
4. More and more retail flower business is being generated and promoted by OG such as ProFlowers, 1800 flowers and the WS.
5. The SAF reviews the sales statistics and are making their conclusions.
6. Their prerogatives have changed. They may not be thinking the B & M florists are the future, except with a few exceptional florists.
They may actually think:
1. The florist business with online orders will eventually narrow down to having orders filled locally by service businesses that aren't what we think of as florists.
2. These will businesses that have minimum wage type employees following bouquet recipes, and visual picture guidelines to produce the bouquet to fill orders.
3. These businesses will be loose knit operations where they work from apartments, homes and very low overhead workrooms.
4. We are already seeing some of this in our area.
The wholesalers aren't helping either:
1. There are wholesalers now in our area that will sell to anyone regardless.
2. Consumer buyers are standing in line with our people at pick up counters at wholesalers.
3. Our pickup people are waiting their turn behind consumers in the queue at additional cost to us.
4. There is some respect for our time, but when the wholesaler is busy it's wait your turn.
Wholesalers may also be the future choice for OG type order fillers:
1. The wholesalers are already buying for significantly less than we are
2. They have coolers and most also have delivery trucks
3. All they would need to do is start assembling bouquets from OG receipes and delivering them.
Sales are critical to business:
1. Large numbers of sales are originating from OG.
2. Don't expect the OG to lay down, if they can't get orders filled by us.
3. The OG are making too much money, they will do everything they can to perpetuate their business.
4. I suspect they are already working on strategies to go on with their business as usual by other methods to get orders filled.
5. The OG will just develop workarounds when the B & M fill florists refuse their orders.
6. Natually, with all the incentives from the WS they will embrace that distribution path as long as it is working for them.
A very old business axiom:
If you have confirmed sales, you find a way to get them fulfilled... no excuses
This axiom applies to all businesses, and it's dead on correct.
bootcampguy
Well-Known Member
I give them credit, at least they are listening..........but unless a large "floral mag." takes the stance and jumps off the fence, there will be 11 more pages next week...................I think thats what alot are saying..........
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
If there was such a thing, I would gladly pay more for it. And I was not "jumping" on Doug, I consider him an ally, not an enemy, I was trying to make a point.
The fact that we have removed personal relationships from dang near every aspect of life, has led many to not care about much. Maybe I care too much, I don't know. I do know, that as a race, if we put others first, we would all be better off. It does come back to you ten fold~!
Listen folks... it makes little difference to me what the ****ing wires do, it affects me not, but it does affect friends of mine, and for me it's a matter of ethics. Evidently there are many who could care less. I do think the consumer would care too if they knew that upwards of 32% of their purchase price did not go to the florist doing the REAL WORK!
I've said enough on this subject (here), it's obvious there are two camps here, those that want things to remain as they are and those that want to change them for the greater good of the REAL FLORISTS THAT DO THE REAL WORK. So be it. I guess it's time to let the public decide.
Y'all have fun now ya hear... i am outa here.
prestonway
Well-Known Member
Boss, I've asked you this 5 or 6 times, so I'm gonna' do it once more, hoping to get an answer.
After all is said and done...and the rants & raves are over...
WHY IS YOUR SHOP, SMITH'S OF MIDLAND, STILL A MEMBER OF FTD????????????
After all is said and done...and the rants & raves are over...
WHY IS YOUR SHOP, SMITH'S OF MIDLAND, STILL A MEMBER OF FTD????????????
bootcampguy
Well-Known Member
Amanda,
With all do respect you are great at your job and the others at SAF, but I don't think SAF has a "clue" what it's like for the real florist on the ground. So many people/shop owners tell me the same thing (I here this everywhere I go) that you are an organization for the few, not for all. You ask that we have open and honest dialogue, here goes: A women several weeks ago from Texas, called me in tears to the point that she was unable to speak. When I finally calmed her down she told me that she had just found out her mother had terminal cancer with 3 days to live. She jumped online as she's always done, found a florist in Texas that advertised "lilacs and peonies" in a vase for 34.99 including delviery (her Mom's weddign flowers". She was charged after fees over $65 dollars. The order was then processed and send through a WS to me. I immediately rejected the order saying "send me some of that crack your smokin". The order came back to me in 15 minutes as - vase arr. designers choice. So we sent a vase as requested but when her mother called and told her it was cute.........the realty of her mothers death became evident through this process. They then both called me in tears, I conferenced call with them for over an hour and educated them (people do you here) educated them on a major downfall of the industry. We fight this everyday as "florist" I futher told them that people who can make a difference in the this industry "are lookign the other way". Amanda this is who we are talking about..............someone who sits in a basement in their underwear somewhere "plucking or duping" uneducated floral customers into their madness. Amanda, name me one other industry where your vendor is also you competitor. She and I are now best friends and she's a cutomer for life..........yes, I sent her lilacs and peonies a few days later at my expense. Everyone (florists) reading this has done this, that is why I said, "you guys have to jump off the fence"..................are they going to driver from LA, Texas or any other city and do this....................The florist are "dying out here" that's why I'm so passionate about teaching florist how to better market themselves. I read the article loud and clear and it said to me something diff than what you said it was about. Every state association that I go to or bootcamp I do............I feel the pain of the florist (because I live it). I've sent numerous emails and phone calls to SAF (1 email got returned) to see if you guys wanted to be part of. The florist are begging, begging for an "advocate" who supports them................not special interest. Thanks for lsiteing.........
I am a "florist".........It's time for the florist to take back all their delivery platforms, technology platforms and educational plantforms and put it into the hands of the people who controlled it for years. Thanks for listening.
With all do respect you are great at your job and the others at SAF, but I don't think SAF has a "clue" what it's like for the real florist on the ground. So many people/shop owners tell me the same thing (I here this everywhere I go) that you are an organization for the few, not for all. You ask that we have open and honest dialogue, here goes: A women several weeks ago from Texas, called me in tears to the point that she was unable to speak. When I finally calmed her down she told me that she had just found out her mother had terminal cancer with 3 days to live. She jumped online as she's always done, found a florist in Texas that advertised "lilacs and peonies" in a vase for 34.99 including delviery (her Mom's weddign flowers". She was charged after fees over $65 dollars. The order was then processed and send through a WS to me. I immediately rejected the order saying "send me some of that crack your smokin". The order came back to me in 15 minutes as - vase arr. designers choice. So we sent a vase as requested but when her mother called and told her it was cute.........the realty of her mothers death became evident through this process. They then both called me in tears, I conferenced call with them for over an hour and educated them (people do you here) educated them on a major downfall of the industry. We fight this everyday as "florist" I futher told them that people who can make a difference in the this industry "are lookign the other way". Amanda this is who we are talking about..............someone who sits in a basement in their underwear somewhere "plucking or duping" uneducated floral customers into their madness. Amanda, name me one other industry where your vendor is also you competitor. She and I are now best friends and she's a cutomer for life..........yes, I sent her lilacs and peonies a few days later at my expense. Everyone (florists) reading this has done this, that is why I said, "you guys have to jump off the fence"..................are they going to driver from LA, Texas or any other city and do this....................The florist are "dying out here" that's why I'm so passionate about teaching florist how to better market themselves. I read the article loud and clear and it said to me something diff than what you said it was about. Every state association that I go to or bootcamp I do............I feel the pain of the florist (because I live it). I've sent numerous emails and phone calls to SAF (1 email got returned) to see if you guys wanted to be part of. The florist are begging, begging for an "advocate" who supports them................not special interest. Thanks for lsiteing.........
I am a "florist".........It's time for the florist to take back all their delivery platforms, technology platforms and educational plantforms and put it into the hands of the people who controlled it for years. Thanks for listening.
Unbelievable... Why would any intelligent business owner even consider wire services having a future? The internet has made them obsolete... throw in the OG also. Customers aren't stupid. Google/Bing/et alia has become the new god for consumers. Does SAF and other "politically correct" organizations that are supposed to be behind small business think that consumers are idiot enough to pay a $4.99 relay fee? SAF here is only interested in rubbing noses with teleflora/ftd, keeping the party line, and staying alive while it watches the small retail shops close in this economy. To quote a line from Star Wars 3: "So this is how democracy ends. With thunderous applause"... applause from SAF drumbeating on the broken backs of small business owners... which happen to, by the way, be waiving in our hands those fradulent government loan handouts for small business from Obama- but I'm getting off course....
Peter's ultimate point was a good one, but the way he attempted to make it was entirely tone deaf to the retail florist community. We in the trenches are keenly aware that it takes a heap of deceptive practices to succeed at 'order gathering' (national selling) as it stands today.
Claimed fake local listings in Google, Yahoo and Yellow Pages (plus a large added dose of phony user reviews) hits us all in the face every day. See here here here here here (and there are thousands and thousands and thousands more.) And those are just the phony locations.... Yes, we do report them, but little seems to happen.
Doorway pages targeting cities - complete with phony markdowns (let's mark up the suggested retail price by $20 and then 'discount' them) abound - like this for tens of thousands of cities across the US.
And then there are all the AdWords ads claiming 'family owned and operated local florist in our city' that are just call centers. These ads all come from 'top senders'. They may be running 2-3 ads for each of our cities under different company names.
Behind each of these 'efforts' are wire service rebate dollars to the tune of $6-$10 per consumer fooled into believing he or she is buying local. Have you ever seen the comments from this site? Like
and
and
Just because what WB, Kay's and other OGs do to completely misrepresent their locations hasn't been deemed 'illegal', it is still inflicts tremendous damage local florists and to our industry and has driven many, many consumers to choose something other than flowers for their future gift giving.
Of course, we florists need to do everything possible to position ourselvses to be found by consumers looking for flowers, but we are competing with businesses who will promise peonies and hydrangeas for $35 (like the example above) then hide behind substitution clauses and hope the sender never sees what was delivered. And that's just the small fries compared to...
Two of the biggest WSs being named to TechCrunch's Wall of Shame for ripping off consumers. And one of the biggest OGs earning a feature warning segment from CBS News this Mother's Day.
You know I aggressively pursue every opportunity to market our business - and have spent countless hours volunteering to help other florists do the same, yet Peter's article - as the leader of SAF - gave NO acknowledgment of how bad deceptive marketing of flowers really is right now. And the way many of the 'leading companies' have chosen to change their business marketing has been to adopt those same deceptive techniques.
It's awful.
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
Cathy you are so awesome. That was a ton of work for a post.
To SAF this is the person right here that got me to rejoin SAF. Her article was featured and I said to myself just maybe SAF could really do more. That was 2 years ago and I'm still waiting.
Had to go and click on all of those links Cathy provided.
This one really sums it up.
To SAF this is the person right here that got me to rejoin SAF. Her article was featured and I said to myself just maybe SAF could really do more. That was 2 years ago and I'm still waiting.
Had to go and click on all of those links Cathy provided.
This one really sums it up.
A quote from that TechCrunch article that bears repeating when it comes to OGing these days:
UNTD (FTD's parent) got hammered this last week due to the loss of their scam post-transactional marketing income. How many other OGs would be in the same position if their deceptive practices got on Sen. Rockefeller's radar?
Emphasis mine.
UNTD (FTD's parent) got hammered this last week due to the loss of their scam post-transactional marketing income. How many other OGs would be in the same position if their deceptive practices got on Sen. Rockefeller's radar?
anytimeflowers
Linda
.
Amanda,
Thank you for responding.
Thank you for responding.
It would be very beneficial to all of us for a forthright, honest dialogue and as you have seen, we can become quite blunt. This seems to bring out people who don't normally even make a peep. I would conjecture that this is because many, many florists are of the same mind, and are truly confounded that an organization such as SAF would appear so squishy on a deeply felt issue.
So, I will ask you, and all who make the decisions on these questions.
Will you stand with us?
Will you bring pressure to the wire services to uphold the regulations set forth by their own bylaws?
Will you help to convince the wire services that allowing DECEPTIVE order-gatherers the use of membership could ultimately bring the ruination of this industry?
Will you bring pressure to the wire services to uphold the regulations set forth by their own bylaws?
Will you help to convince the wire services that allowing DECEPTIVE order-gatherers the use of membership could ultimately bring the ruination of this industry?
As Cathy pointed out, we could run searches all day long and still not find them all. It is especially horrendous to tout such phrases as.... award winning designs...., family owned since 1910..... You get the picture. I know you get the picture.
We implore you to bring pressure to the wire services to end this.
It will end, one way or another, but to what cost?
It will end, one way or another, but to what cost?
Thank you
Linda Pawlik
Linda Pawlik
lori042499
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Consumers are stupid enough to pay 12.99 relay fee...every order placed with any og, wireservice direct or 800-flowers has this fee attached to the tune of millions of dollars taken right from your home base of customer through better marketing than you provide..The internet hasn't made the wire services obsolete it has made them huge unstoppable monsters, simply because we perpetuate the system, like an abusive relationship, we all knoew it doesn't work yet so many of us have a hard time letting go for so many reasons.
lori042499
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conchandler
Well-Known Member
Ditto what Lori said, Cathy. If they can even change at this point. Thanks for all those links, Cathy. You gotta love all those 5-star reviews supposedly written in June, touting beautiful Fall flowers. C'mon! I'd say Google has there work cut out for them, trying to verify all these "local" businesses.
Mikey the Flower Guy
It's a GREAT DAY to live, and love!
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NOW we are getting somewhere....YES, BOSS is right, BUT, "fair trade" is a term so ridiculously, and loosely used these days as to water down it's perceived value,from it's original context......Fair Trade is a way of expressing the social value of treating people like people, and is in NO WAY OR SHAPE, a way of expressing it's implications on business!!
We all know horror stories about poor people being taken advantage of, and thus, proponents have found a way to express their displeasure with that, BUT, a business HAS to operate within the global rules of engagement, regardless of the products being spoken of, and in THIS case, NOBODY is getting rich, on the backs of poor people, in the flower business!!
"Boycotting" BP is irrelevant.....BP is responsible for the greatest ecological disaster in US history, I guess in some peoples point of view, that's THE SAME, as what we are talking about!
Florists have been largely out to lunch, when it comes to world business, and THAT is what we are trying to correct, remove the "emotional" side, and rationalize the potential of what we HAVE, NOT what we ONCE "had".......
Mikey the Flower Guy
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