RC "Expelled"??? (no)

[Dee Dee]

I must be blind as well I didn't see Joe go...? And I didn't see RC accuse anyone of cheating. I think I need lessons in navigating this site. How do I miss so much??? I love the people on FC some crack me up, some make me think, some make me re-think, it's very helpful. I hate to think I am missing half of it.........or more than half of it.

Yikes does Ryan offer Newbie classes?

I want to learn not one new thing every day but 30 new things every day, how will I do that while missing out.

Oops - sorry is'nt it all about me ?? LOL

 

[theRKF]

I must be blind as well I didn't see Joe go...? And I didn't see RC accuse anyone of cheating. I think I need lessons in navigating this site. How do I miss so much??? I love the people on FC some crack me up, some make me think, some make me re-think, it's very helpful. I hate to think I am missing half of it.........or more than half of it.

Yikes does Ryan offer Newbie classes?

I want to learn not one new thing every day but 30 new things every day, how will I do that while missing out.

Oops - sorry is'nt it all about me ?? LOL

DeeDee,

Between using the "New Posts" link at the top and checking out Jim's video tutorials you should be well on your way to navigating like a 6 yr FC vet.

Ryan

 

[lori042499]

I've been meaning to ask this question for a long, long time.... What is the definition of a "successful business person"?

I think it's undefinable. In fact I think it's a meaningless concept.

A "successful business person" can turn into a complete failure overnight, as we have seen it lately. And all the sudden, this person's opinions don't matter any more, even though s/he remains the same person.

People in this country give way too much credit to a person(s) who runs a "successful" business, which usually means a "big" business.

I'm not trying to discredit RC; let me be clear on that.

But imagine that you were a single mom florist with three kids to take care of. Your disposable resources (time and money) are quite limited to begin with, as you weren't born into a family florist. Yet you work hard day and night for 20 years in a tiny little flower shop, and somehow manage to send your kids to college.

Success? Yes. Does her opinions matter? Of course it does. Does anyone listens to her? Questionable.

I am not what your definition of successful florist is...I am a 3 year owner trying to make my way with 25+ years experience in this industry...

Bloomz has had many nice things to say to me and we have had many nice conversations...I will venture to guess that he does not think of me as an idiot or something less than a professional business owner..I have gotten many reputation points from him...am I on the same level as RC, not even in the slightest...Do I feel respected by people like Bloomz, I sure do??? I amy be wrong but I do not think I am...

I think you may ne way off base here Goldi...and believe me we all need people like RC he has vision that some of us only dream about...he has marketing ability to be rivaled..I may not like how he can come across as pompous, but I sure could learn alot from him...I do not agree he was in the right to accuse BJ of being a cheater or attacking his character. I did think it was OK to question the ethics behind soliciting votes, it is not something I would be comfortable with, but there was nothing against it in the rules.. We could have all done it if we wanted to...

 

[goldfish]

Sure there are intrinsic values in a career that go beyond money, but those values don't pay the bills.

Agreed. But the question really is whether earning more money (or fame or power) has any relationship to that person's professional abilities.

I'm not talking about "values"; I'm talking about the relationship between "success" of a person and that person's abilities.

Many times have I seen in my career that most "able" talents actually chose to earn less, or chose to go to a "lesser" institution, or chose to be a minor player in the profession rather than trying to become "famous." It happens.

Let me ask this if I may...

Let's say you are a lawyer. You chose to become a public criminal defense lawyer whose job is primarily to defend criminals who have no money. You do so, because that's what you want to do.

Your friend, on the other hand, chose to become a corporate lawyer, who routinely charges ~$2,000/hr.

Ten years later, you would still be living in a modest house, with an income sufficient to buy Honda Civic. But you are happy. Your friend, on the other hand, would be living in a multi-million dollar house. He may or may not be happy.

From outside, most people look at you and your friend, and say your friend is a "successful" lawyer and you are not that successful.

Now what does this perception of "success" have anything to do with your ability as a lawyer? They don't know you, they don't know him after all.

"Success" or more strictly, appearance of success as measured in money/power/fame, is not a perfect indication of a person's professional worth.

It has, however, a lot to do with the choice s/he made in terms of how aggressively s/he would go after money and fame. It also has a lot to do with luck, i.e., being in the right place at the right time.

And finally, as I said many times before, some of us have had to make a career choice between an honorable loser and despicable winner. Some people choose the former. If you haven't made that choice yet, I think you might want to consider yourself lucky.

 

[LJVF]

goldie, great reply, excellent point of view.

Now may I ask, how would you measure failure? Or from your perspective, can you?

 

[bloomz]

I think you may ne way off base here Goldi...and believe me we all need people like RC he has vision that some of us only dream about...he has marketing ability to be rivaled..I may not like how he can come across as pompous, but I sure could learn alot from him...I do not agree he was in the right to accuse BJ of being a cheater or attacking his character. I did think it was OK to question the ethics behind soliciting votes, it is not something I would be comfortable with, but there was nothing against it in the rules.. We could have all done it if we wanted to...

I saw the points on both sides of the argument.

Taking sides was I do believe what offended Randy.

I think it should have been left between the two of them - they're both big boys who can handle themselves quite adequately. (My opinion)

I'm glad I stayed out of it as I consider both of them to be my friends.

As well as I consider both of them to be huge valued contributing members of flowerchat.

No matter how you slice and dice and over-analyze it, Goldie, it is this board's loss to not have RC here, as well as BJ who has also been silent since the exchange.

I'm sure this was far from what was intended with a "friendly competition".

 

[sfox]

Agreed. But the question really is whether earning more money (or fame or power) has any relationship to that person's professional abilities.

I'm not talking about "values"; I'm talking about the relationship between "success" of a person and that person's abilities.

Many times have I seen in my career that most "able" talents actually chose to earn less, or chose to go to a "lesser" institution, or chose to be a minor player in the profession rather than trying to become "famous." It happens.

Let me ask this if I may...

Let's say you are a lawyer. You chose to become a public criminal defense lawyer whose job is primarily to defend criminals who have no money. You do so, because that's what you want to do.

Your friend, on the other hand, chose to become a corporate lawyer, who routinely charges ~$2,000/hr.

Ten years later, you would still be living in a modest house, with an income sufficient to buy Honda Civic. But you are happy. Your friend, on the other hand, would be living in a multi-million dollar house. He may or may not be happy.

From outside, most people look at you and your friend, and say your friend is a "successful" lawyer and you are not that successful.

Now what does this perception of "success" have anything to do with your ability as a lawyer? They don't know you, they don't know him after all.

"Success" or more strictly, appearance of success as measured in money/power/fame, is not a perfect indication of a person's professional worth.

It has, however, a lot to do with the choice s/he made in terms of how aggressively s/he would go after money and fame. It also has a lot to do with luck, i.e., being in the right place at the right time.

And finally, as I said many times before, some of us have had to make a career choice between an honorable loser and despicable winner. Some people choose the former. If you haven't made that choice yet, I think you might want to consider yourself lucky.

Reading your post goldfish, I get a good feeling. But does having a good feeling have anything to do with reality? Your post pushes the point that it's not always the amount of money you make, but rather how you got to where you are.

Isn't that a little like the teachers who pass the kid that can't read but he tried real hard. This is the same kid who goes through his whole time in school getting by because while he hasn't done the work up to measurable standards, but he tried very hard and the teachers built up his self-worth. Then he graduates and can't keep a job because he can't read and becomes bitter because it's the business owners who won't give him a chance.

Now the amount of money you accumulate by itself should not be the sole measure of success, but in someone like Randy's case, he built his business by his hard work. I am sure he has stories of his struggles. But if you need a measure that says "success" the volume of business he has built is surely a great one to use.

 

[David]

As well as I consider both of them to be huge valued contributing members of flowerchat.

No matter how you slice and dice and over-analyze it, Goldie, it is this board's loss to not have RC here, as well as BJ who has also been silent since the exchange.

I agree with you

 

[RWK]

This has turned into an interesting thread......especially the posts concerning success.

By some standards I have been and am successful....All my bills are paid, I am living in a small, modest house, I have an older car to drive, I sleep well, I rely strongly on my faith, and I am able to enjoy the occasional whim. Vice versa - there are those who would look at me as a dismal failure having succeeded at nothing.

Regarding failure......at least in my opinion.....I am not ashamed to say I may have failed in this or that......I am glad that I made the attempt....and as my signature says.....I will never be counted with those timid souls who have not failed.....because they did not try.

So, for me - success is not defined in monetary terms - rather, a poem credited to Ralph Waldo Emerson speaks for my definition of success.

What is success

To laugh often and much;

To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children;

To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends;

To appreciate beauty;

To find the best in others;

To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition;

To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived;

This is to have succeeded. 　
​

 

[CHR]

I saw the points on both sides of the argument.

Taking sides was I do believe what offended Randy.

Taking sides?

No one broke the rules and as far as soliciting votes, trust me when I say there was more than one entry doing so.

We had 12 fantastic winners, not one, and what was supposed to be a way to get the community to celebrate design did so until we had a confrontation of name calling and finger pointing. Ratherthan giving me (who instigated this competition in the first place) the opportunity to learn from a first attempt, nothing short of a full-scale blow-up would do.

Pick up the phone, send a PM or 5, volunteer to set new rules or chair the next one, and treat others like the imperfect humans we are (and I am).

The outcome of the top 12 would not have changed.

The 'flaw' was mine and mine alone for not anticipating every possible way the votes would be cast.

How could I 'blame' anyone for following the rules clearly laid out from the start and followed to the letter? My refusal to 'go after' anyone was obviously seen as some sort of moral bankruptcy.

"Let no good deed go unpunished."

 

[bloomz]

Nobody pointed any fingers at you Cathy -

Some did run to BJ's defense tho.....other than Shannon I'm not really sure exactly who nor is it important enough to me to go back and find out.

it was a great effort that many obviously had fun with. But for a couple - it ended up on a bad note.

I was just giving my opinions with the little I know about it (more than some) at the possible "reasons" for losing RC and BJ.

I hope neither one of them stay away for long.


I remember when Twila did the Sylvia cup and the extreme bitterness I saw in the hall outside afterwards by one contestant. I don't know enough about these things to know if it goes with the territory or not.

oh well, guess what?

opinions vary

 

[LJVF]

Taking sides?

No one broke the rules and as far as soliciting votes, trust me when I say there was more than one entry doing so.

We had 12 fantastic winners, not one, and what was supposed to be a way to get the community to celebrate design did so until we had a confrontation of name calling and finger pointing. Ratherthan giving me (who instigated this competition in the first place) the opportunity to learn from a first attempt, nothing short of a full-scale blow-up would do.

Pick up the phone, send a PM or 5, volunteer to set new rules or chair the next one, and treat others like the imperfect humans we are (and I am).

The outcome of the top 12 would not have changed.

The 'flaw' was mine and mine alone for not anticipating every possible way the votes would be cast.

Cathy, it's too bad the drama unfolded the way it did, it really took away from what I feel was a real good thing you did by organizing this contest. It really seemed to be jinxed right off the bat.

I don't really think there is a right side on this issue because, in my opinion, RC and BJ both had good points. However, sides were taken, and I think it played at the very least, a small part in why we haven't seen these two around lately. This wasn't an everyday "how to hydrate hydrangea" debate, this was far more personal.

How could I 'blame' anyone for following the rules clearly laid out from the start and followed to the letter? My refusal to 'go after' anyone was obviously seen as some sort of moral bankruptcy.

"Let no good deed go unpunished."

I don't think RC really was arguing that BJ broke the rules, I think he was accusing BJ of breaking the spirit of the rules. Whether these accusations were justified or not is arguable. I will point out that BJ defended himself well from these hard accusations, he brought up some very good points and at the very least he deserves a pass. (BTW, he wasn't the only one who solicited votes.)

I'll use baseball as an example of how one can play within in the rules, but break the spirit of the game. (disclaimer: not correlating with BJ by any means). Was it right for Barry Bonds to shoot himself up with steroids because there wasn't a rule against it?"

EDIT:

Thought of a better analogy, what if Shannon had solicited votes for the Flowers& Bridal Bouquet Contest? Would it be wrong to question her ethics if she had won even though she didn't break any rules? (At least I don't think it was a rule)

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

Oh BOO HOO HOO!!
If he wants to leave, let him leave.

good grief.

Yes BJ and RC are both grown men.
And yes, I did defend BJ's character and I'd do it again.

Good grief, if RC is so put off my me defending BJ what does that really say about RC? Was it really that damaging to his ego to have me defend BJ? Come on, be for real.

I would have not said anything had he NOT said to BJ at the end of his post, (THAT HE LATER DELETED) and I'm paraphrasing here... 'BJ you're unethical and I hope you don't conduct your life the same way you did in this contest. BJ you have a bunch of letters after your name, but that doesn't make you a good person and that's why I hate oneupmanship clubs like AIFD.'

Those words were just flat uncalled for. There was no reason to attack AIFD.

And Bloomz, yes some people really do like to win and be the first all the time. And when they don't/aren't they get really really angry.

I am more surprised by RC's behavior than anything during this whole thing. It blows my mind that a 47 year old man would get this angry over absolutely nothing.
I also wish BJ would start posting again as well.

But you know what, I'm really grateful to this design competition. It opened a huge door for me to work out some differences that me and another FC'r were having. I have a tremendous amount of newly found respect for this person. And had this thread (the design competition thread) never been started we probably would not have communicated the way we did.

And finally, Cathy I would LOVE to help out with anything to do with the next competition.

 

[Beth]

Could a rule be added, forbidding the solicitation of votes from members? Before the voting I received at least 2 PMs asking me to look at the person's entry and cast a vote. I did, but it made me feel uncomfortable. I'd rather not get PMs like that.

 

[bloomz]

Oh BOO HOO HOO!!
If he wants to leave, let him leave.

good grief.

opinions vary.....

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

opinions vary.....

This is the thing Bloomz...

I don't want RC to leave... BUT if he wants to, ya know, whatever.

If Joe doesn't come back, that's a total drag for me personally. I really dig Joe.

And if BJ stops posting, that's an equal drag.

But what can you do? Beg?

 

[RWK]

JB - You mentioned about Twila and the Sylvia Cup. As I mentioned earlier in this thread. I have judged quite a few design competitions over the years. Invariably, there is one competitor who thinks that the judges, the rules, the materials, something was "against" them and they should have won.

That is why after a competition has been completed......wins or losses announced.....then I try to find out who did the work and try to talk with each of them to explain why I viewed the work as I did.

A good example......I judged a local design competition not too long ago and one of the competitors did a gorgeous, creative corsage......however.....No matter how I looked at the design, turned it over, right-side up, downside, etc. I could not find or figure out how the corsage would be worn and attached to the outfit. I counted off considerably for that.

When she saw the scores, she exploded, started ranting about how she was 'robbed' and just carrying on something awful. I managed to catch her and asked her to accompany me to the design and since I was one of the judges....perhaps I could explain why the design was marked the way it was.

Well, when she showed me the design, I recognized it and told her that I was the one who gave it such a low score and why. It did not dawn on her what I was talking about until I gave her corsage magnets and corsage pins and asked her to put the corsage on. She struggled to put it on......and as she struggled.....I could see the reality set in. It finally clicked on her mind what I was talking about.

Now, as to getting PM'd and asking for a vote.......I took it as asking for a critique.....which I did. However, I first reviewed what had already been wrote and if it was a design that I had already commented on....I passed over the design without rating it a second time.

 

[bloomz]

I am more surprised by RC's behavior than anything during this whole thing. It blows my mind that a 47 year old man would get this angry over absolutely nothing.
I also wish BJ would start posting again as well.

He quite obviously didn't consider it "nothing" and he quite obviously didn't understand the "things" (for lack of a better term and to avoid using the term "tricks") involved in design competitions.

I think he thought it was about the flowers.

Hence, I understand his statement about "clubs" and can see why he feels that way.

Ricky - people who aren't in those "clubs" don't follow understand or even agree with those things necessarily, or sometimes even not at all.

I saw the Sylvia Cup entries this year and I congratulate the winner.

But I don't get why it won over more in depth designs, maybe it's simplicity, maybe mechanics, maybe it, just maybe it's totally esoteric.

But I'm a florist, who thinks it should just be about the flowers.

Van Gogh paintings are among the most sought after in the world - will anyone tell me they are pretty?

See I'm not a member of the esoteric Art Club either.

But I know what I like.

And I'm learning all the time what the public likes.

and

RC is a Master at selling what the public likes.

Therefore I appreciate every opportunity to learn from him and those like him. Those opportunities are rare.


I really don't get why opinions would vary on that topic.

Maybe it's just me.....but I don't think so

 

[Victoria]

This whole discussion started not because an individual was upset over the behaviour of another... it started as a result of HOW this person reacted to that perceived behaviour. He mislead many of us to believe he's been removed by the administration. To me that is bad and petulant behaviour from an adult for whom I had some respect.

I don't know why Joe is taking a hiatus, but he made his decision and removed himself in a dignified way. For all Randy's business accumen, his public persona in this regard is very disappointing.

V

 

[BOSS]

BOSS's Quote of the day!!

Now the amount of money you accumulate by itself should not be the sole measure of success

Right on! It's perhaps the single worst judgment that can be made!

I know some pretty wealthy (financially) jack asses! :rofl: